Soubrette said:
All quotes in bold originally posted by Lord Kenneth
Now for my answer.
If materialism is true, then only matter creates conciousness(or more accurately forms conciousness as a process of matter).
So you're asking this question using the assumption that materialism is true? In my opinion the guy should be turned in for definite then
No, my answer, not the question.
Now, what seperates a person from being another person? Different particles, yes, and the body's entire configuration of them.
If "entire configuration of them" also involves the occupation of a different space at the same time then I agree totally with this. I think this is a very important separation
That's a given, because I already mentioned theyare different atoms.
Every nanosecond (and of course even before that) we change, even slightly, as our molecules and such change and shift. What we usually define as the same person is actually a different person, who is the same except with a few miniscule differences.
Indeed but each different particle is miniscule and so similar as to be undiscernable. If I took 10 red bricks from house and replaced them with 10 other red bricks is my house a different house?
Yes, but as is with people, the difference is miniscule. Your house, afterall, has changed.
What I'm trying to say here is that I think your definition of a different person is stretching it a little. If I cut my fingernails or my hair I've lost a fair bit of particles there - lost it - not replaced it, but am I a different person?
You are a different person, in body, maybe not brain (disregarding changes in brain independent from losing hair or fingernails).
These differences, however, are so small they are negligible.
Such is why you are a different person than the one you were yesterday, an hour ago, or even a minute ago. The exact amount of chemicals in your body and variations of them are different-- this isn't dualism, where the mind and body are seperate, but materialism, where we are the process of matter and energy, physical processes.
But the exact amount are so negligibly different that it makes in effect no difference. If I put a molecule of orange juice into my pint of water - I still have water.
You have a glass of water with a "molecule of orange juice".
There is a difference, but it is so small that we cannot detect it. Just because it is so small, however, doesn't make it the same.
You will always share the same genes, of course, with your past and future selves. This does not, however, account for environment, which forms who we are as well.
Although there is more and more research that shows us that genetic factors are maybe more important than we'd previously thought. Adopted people often share things like mental characteristics, preferences and body shape with their birth families. I watched a programme once about it (that's as good a cite as you get from me
) Two twin girls were brought up by two different families - one in a "health conscious" gym orientated family. The other in a more relaxed McDonalds type family. They both weighed within a couple of pounds of each other. Although in my opinion the health conscious one looked slightly better toned.
So it doesn't look like the influences are 50% genetic and 50% environment.
I don't know, but environment certainly is more of a factor in shaping personality and such than it is in shaping the body...
It is hard to explain, so I hope nobody understand what I was saying or trying to express...
I hope that's not precisely what you meant to say here
Oops.
Our memories tell us what we did in the past and our current mindset and base personality interacts with it to basically make up our entire personality and ideas. The man in the example's personality has changed as a result of the loss of his memories, and he has developed with making new ones, so my verdict is the man is a new person and should not be punished for what a man who is no longer existing (and is no longer similar to) did.
We are a tabula rasa? Current thinking does not support that idea. We are hard wired for language, possibly religion and certain views of the world. We are influenced by our chemical make up. It's not your memories that make a person prone to depression, it's the chemical make up in your brain.
I never said it wasn't.
However, our memories help us shape our personalities. If you hate someone, you aren't going to hang around them. If you have bad experiences with a certain group of people, you most likely aren't going to be like them. How you are raised is a large factor in how you act. This does work together with genetics, though.
Here's an extention:
Now, the man who killed all those people is dead, but an mad scientist re-creates him with all his past murderous memories... what he was like before he got knocked out and had amnesia. He may or may not get the memories the guy had after he got amnesia, but it doesn't matter, the doctor creates the man to have the same personality he had when he was killing people.
But, this is not the same man, the same particles are not making him up, only different ones, a copy of it. So one can say that he did not kill all those people, that this new man is just a clone with the memories implanted.
Should this new man be jailed? Punished?
So the crux of your argument is basically because this man is made up of different atoms than the original man - he is not the same man. Even though he will feel he is the same man and indeed like you say - we are slightly different from nanosecond to nanosecond and ever onward.
Not because he is made of different atoms, but because his entire body is not in the same atomic configuration. He may be similar enough to be considered by our standards to be the same man, but truthfully he really isn't.
You keep on implying dualism in your arguments... conciousness is a product of brain activity, whether you know it or not, you seem to be implying that who we are is independent of that.
I feel your argument carries a big problem - if you feel that the man should not be punished then you have to explain why the original man (under your argument that we are the same but different on a moment to moment basis) should be punished for his crimes - or indeed why anyone should be punished for their crimes.
To me - if you believe in materialism then the man's consciousness is recreated, in effect "he" is recreated as a materialist should feel there is nothing special about consciousness - thus he should be punished. If you feel it is a different "he" then you would have to explain why.
Me: Man with amnesia should not go to jail, he has developed anew under different circumstances learning things again for the very first time.
Recreated man, however, is similar enough by our standards to be jailed for the crime.
Basically, while it may be different particles and slightly different atomic and chemical configurations in the body, people define who one is in a more general and not exact sense.
That's because we
know we are a continuous person, I'm guessing we assume that others too have that sense of self because we do - then we go to university and start contemplating our navels
.
It's nothing to do with defining people in a general and inexact sense and all to do with the first person evidence that we have of ourselves - in my opinion.
It doesn't matter if we "know" we are the same person. Also, it doesn't matter if a person's existence is continuous or not.
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