A question for believers

[Irish Murdoch]

I recently made a point on another thread that I think (I could be wrong!) warrants a thread of its own. It's a point that I would genuinely (i.e., not in a sneering sceptical sort of way, though I am a sceptic) like to see answered by believers in magical powers, or the afterlife, or "higher planes". I'd be interested to know what you think.

Here's what I wrote on the other thread:

'I'm happy reading books, going for walks, eating crumpets in front of the fire on a cold Autumn afternoon, watching my kids grow up, and talking to my friends over a nice glass of pinot grigio. Why the need for anything more? I have to be honest (and this might just be a matter of temperament), I'm utterly baffled by why anybody would want "magical powers"'

The thought is, why does anybody want to believe in something "beyond" the everyday? The everyday is fantastic, if only we open our eyes to it (I know that there are people for whom it is not fantastic, of course, but I mean for the sorts of people likely to be using a forum such as this).

It seems to me that wanting magical powers, wanting to live after death, and so on, is a flight from finitude. Me, I'm in love with finitude, hopelessly, deliriously, passionately in love with it! Sorry, came over all poetic there .... Am I weird for finding finitude great? Isn't finitude the necessary condition of our being who we are? For those who believe in magic: Isn't it fantastic not to have too much control or power over events--isn't there a joy in that? For those who believe in an afterlife: isn't it wonderful to have a temporal boundary to our lives? (As a child, I always used to think how terrible eternal life in heaven, or anywhere else, would be ....)

I don't believe in magic, and I don't believe in an afterlife. But here's the rub: if I was given the choice between living in a magical (complete with afterlife) or a non-magical universe, I'd pick the non-magical: the universe where I was essentially and ineluctably finite. Every time.

So, my point is that there's another question to be asked of believers. "How do you know that's true?" is one question. But "Why on earth would you want it to be true?" is another.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Well said, Irish. I'll go for something simpler over unlimited power and time, every time.


Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with
themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon.

---Susan Ertz

 

[BPSCG]

But "Why on earth would you want it to be true?" is another.

I guess the universe isn't magical enough for some people.

A couple of weeks ago, my neighbor and I watched the transit of Venus through his telescope. We were totally fascinated, even though we understood perfectly what was happening, and less perfectly the physics behind it.

When I read about string theory, it strikes me as practically magical - infinitesimally tiny bits of energy from which the fabric of the universe is made (made me ask, among other things, if matter is in fact MADE from energy, and if so, why does energy exist in the first place?). I don't remotely understand it, and probably never will. But I know there's real science behind it, so even if it's wrong, it's probably a lot closer to being true than magical spells. Isn't trying to understand it worth a lot more of my time than the study of something that only exists if you believe it - and maybe not even then?

It's sad. I guess the believers are so insecure they want to be truly knowledgeable about something. And what's better than being knowledgeable about the paranormal? After all, no matter how outrageous your claim, you can get credulous people to believe it. Must be great for the ego, if bad for the intellect.

 

[Keneke]

Isn't it fantastic not to have too much control or power over events--isn't there a joy in that?

I am not a believer in the paranormal, but as far as reveling in "finitude", I must emphatically say: HELL NO! There are two type of people in this world: those who crave power, and those who do not. If a person is satisfied being imperfect, then so be it. However, I, and many other like me, want and crave power; power to bend the universe to my will, the power to live as long as I want to live; the power to have the answer to life's problems. These may be unattainable goals, but they are goals nonetheless. Therefore, as a goal-oriented person, I am constantly aware of these impossible benchmarks that I want to reach.

Being type "A" is just the way some of us are. You may not understand it, but it's there. Unfortunately, this craving for power allows some people to lose their critical thinking mind, the same way a man loses his cool when he falls in love. Luckily, I have kept my skeptical wits about me, in spite of my attitude.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Speaking as an ex-believer (not raised as one), the answer is that believers don't even think about your questions.

 

[Keneke]

Re: Re: A question for believers

It's sad. I guess the believers are so insecure they want to be truly knowledgeable about something.

What you call insecurity, I call the drive to better ourselves. Yes, it is unfortunate that people deal with this drive in such incorrect ways, but I see nothing wrong with this type of desire, provided you do not go bad to satisfy yourself.

 

[LostAngeles]

I used to believe in such things when I was in my childhood and adolescence because they helped make the world more interesting. I also loved looking at pictures of nebulae because those made the world more interesting.

The nebulae ended up winning out in the end.

I think people believe because they see the world as being too stark, too brutal, and too "reductionist". Having faith in a god(s) who created everything around us and us too makes them feel more "special". People believe in things like homeopathy and acupunture because the complexity of modern medicine confuses them. I'm willing to wager the high cost of health care factors in there too. The people throwing "firebolts" likely want to have some kind of "special ability." These beliefs are almost like a security blanket, but it's a blinding security blanket to the really neat sh!t that goes on in the universe.

To have fairies and visiting aliens and a God who loves us and made us in a day and a Santa Claus and a water based remedy for colds would be nice. Instead, we have (insert offensive gay fairy joke here), immigrants and tourists, life was likely made by a random bonding of two molecules, Mom is Santa Claus, and juice/Gatorade definitely seem to help in recovering from a cold.

Oh and nebulae.

 

[LostAngeles]

Re: Re: A question for believers

...However, I, and many other like me, want and crave power; power to bend the universe to my will, the power to live as long as I want to live; the power to have the answer to life's problems.
...

How cute. You're like, the Lex Luthor to my Galactus. (Cause I can already do that, j0)

You do make a good point though and those are very valid desires. I personally see those powers coming through science and not mysticism myself. So I end up looking at the woos and going, "But... but... computers! computer brains! nebulae!"

 

[BPSCG]

Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

What you call insecurity, I call the drive to better ourselves. Yes, it is unfortunate that people deal with this drive in such incorrect ways, but I see nothing wrong with this type of desire, provided you do not go bad to satisfy yourself.

But why waste one's time on nonsense, when there is so much true stuff to learn? There are organisms that live by the heat of lava flows at the bottom of the ocean. Isn't that magical enough? The light from some of the the stars you see at night left those stars thousands of years ago. Doesn't that inspire enough sense of wonder? Quantum mechanics is so weird (to my limited mind, anyway) that it surrenders nothing in the hocus-pocus department to Harry Potter. Why is studying how to cast spells worth one's time, but understanding QM not? Seeing the inside of your own femoral artery on a TV monitor is fascinating (if scary - believe me); isn't that greater magic than homeopathy?

I submit that believers are truly unimaginative; they can't see the magic that exists all around them

 

[tracer]

Me, I'm in love with finitude, hopelessly, deliriously, passionately in love with it! Sorry, came over all poetic there .... Am I weird for finding finitude great?

Yes, you are. Give me my immortality pills now!

I, like the Believers (or at least like many of them), long to live forever. I don't just want to live to see kids grow up, I want to live to see our colonies on Mars and the establishment of our interstellar civilization.

But I'm not so naive to think that the path to this immortality is gonna come through being a Believer in woo-woo nonsense. It's gonna come through real science -- through finding out the way the universe actually works, not how a Believer would like it to work. Wishing really hard for something doesn't make it happen, but working toward it just might.

 

[AOK Tiger]

I am a died in the wool sceptic but I would LOVE if if the Woo woo stuff had even a slight portion of truth.

I would love to have esp or psi, I would love to levitate or live on air, I would love to live forever…

However it is all a pile of CRAP… even WANTING this stuff to be true doesn’t make it so that is why I never understand the woo woos. I want it as much as they do.. this makes me study it.. and when you do and have ½ a brain you can discern it is all a pile of doo doo.

Man WILL achieve all these things one day.. esp,. imortaility etc etc.. but it will be through his own damn hard work and science.. I just hope I am around for some of it !

 

[Sloe_Bohemian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

But why waste one's time on nonsense, when there is so much true stuff to learn? There are organisms that live by the heat of lava flows at the bottom of the ocean. Isn't that magical enough? The light from some of the the stars you see at night left those stars thousands of years ago. Doesn't that inspire enough sense of wonder? Quantum mechanics is so weird (to my limited mind, anyway) that it surrenders nothing in the hocus-pocus department to Harry Potter. Why is studying how to cast spells worth one's time, but understanding QM not? Seeing the inside of your own femoral artery on a TV monitor is fascinating (if scary - believe me); isn't that greater magic than homeopathy?

I submit that believers are truly unimaginative; they can't see the magic that exists all around them

I agree completely. I'll make a generalization. Many of the woo-woo roots are sown in Jr High and High School when some kids get the message that they can't be smart like the other kids... they are told that biochemistry is magical but what they hear is the dull roar of ocean waves crashing over them because they can't get the material... or don't want to... or their family or friends have convinced them they won't be able to...

But the tabloid journal on the counter doesn't talk down to them... it doesn't make them feel stupid. The burnouts and the nerds who aren't in computer club can talk about a universe existing inside the nucleus of a cell... without knowing what that means... then they start talking about how Stevie Nicks was a witch and so is their friends mother's neighbor... and so on...

btw- I've spent a lot of last week playing with the "believers" at Mia Dolan's psychic forum... it's nice to be back with adults.

 

[The idea]

I'm utterly baffled by why anybody would want "magical powers"'

Don't be silly. They could be very convenient to have.

The thought is, why does anybody want to believe in something "beyond" the everyday? The everyday is fantastic, if only we open our eyes to it (I know that there are people for whom it is not fantastic, of course, but I mean for the sorts of people likely to be using a forum such as this).

Yes, the everyday is fantastic. You assume too much. Not everyone who believes wanted to believe. One might try with all one's might to disbelieve, but eventually one can be persuaded.

It seems to me that wanting magical powers, wanting to live after death, and so on, is a flight from finitude. Me, I'm in love with finitude, hopelessly, deliriously, passionately in love with it!

Good. If Jesus was a prophet (and even Muslims say that He was a prophet), then take note that, according to Jesus, people do not take husbands and wives when they are resurrected. So you should get all your sex before the resurrection. However, don't resort to fornication or adultery.

Isn't finitude the necessary condition of our being who we are?

You will be transformed. Jesus said that you must be born again even before the resurrection if you wish to inherit eternal life.

For those who believe in magic: Isn't it fantastic not to have too much control or power over events--isn't there a joy in that?

Yes, creativity operates within a framework of rules. Who offered you special powers? The promise is that you will have life and that you will have it abundantly. The promise is that you will have comfort and joy.

For those who believe in an afterlife: isn't it wonderful to have a temporal boundary to our lives? (As a child, I always used to think how terrible eternal life in heaven, or anywhere else, would be ....)

I'm not convinced that there's much good in death. So what is the good of your temporal boundary? You thought as a child that eternal life would be terrible, but you were thinking like a child. There is more in Heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy. Eternal fun is a possibility even if you cannot conceive of it.

Why on earth would you want it to be true?

Some believers have fought tooth and nail against the belief and only resigned themselves to it reluctantly.

 

[DionysianSmile]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

I agree completely. I'll make a generalization. Many of the woo-woo roots are sown in Jr High and High School when some kids get the message that they can't be smart like the other kids... they are told that biochemistry is magical but what they hear is the dull roar of ocean waves crashing over them because they can't get the material... or don't want to... or their family or friends have convinced them they won't be able to...

I've found that when I was predisposed to woo-woo beliefs it was sown in high school. On top of the fact that people don't get science and math because it requires effort... Arts are so much more alluring because it is purely subjective. There is no need to provide evidence for your belief because you can create a complex enough semantical system to assure your conclusion. People learn that arguing is a matter of wits and not necessarily the facts. I, at the same time, wanted to grasp as much "truth" about the world and found that within this area truth means something less definite than something scientific and something more akin to "goodness" or perhaps some other morally influencing ideal (I said this awkwardly). Spiritual truth is paramount to factual truth. Where the problem comes in is that in the end each system wants to create a cosmology for their systems. When the scientist creates their cosmology they base it on the body of knowledge based on outcomes and conclusions and precise and predictablility and abiding by discovered laws. When the Arts person wants to construct their cosmology, what do they do? They rely on the tools that they already have. The source of truth from literature and heresay and the accepted truths from their ancestors. Really the same activity is going on. The Arts person ultimately assumes they are correct because the vast majority of people can easily be persuaded to their pleas that hit the buttons of the listeners because those listeners do not have the scientific skills to figure out the difference.

When I was in high school, physics was only introduced in grade 12. I had already taken the rudimentary sciences of biology and chemistry to grade 11 and thought that I had sufficient tools to then pursue the arts. Thinking about life deeply will eventually bring you to try to understand the mechanics of the universe. If you weren't exposed to physics, then it's perfectly reasonable to derive your understanding from the fields that you already know about instead of knowing that there are highly specialized areas of science is already dealing with them. When critiqued by the skeptic, the Arts person is offended that ideas can be WRONG, and so they work hard to try to get the skeptic over to their world view and never really understand how it is that the skeptic can live their life so void of the deepest understanding of the "human condition".

I think had I had better understanding of the restraints of Nature before I began to try to formulate any kind of cosmology, perhaps I would not have run down the woo-woo road.

I don't understand why physics, when it comes to the most rudimentary understanding (not the equation parts) is probably easier to understand than critiquing a Shakespearean play. My girlfriend didn't realize about gravity much until she met me, no fault of her own but she never took any courses that would have ever really addressed gravity.

 

[Marian]

Like other people who posted, I would love for certain things to be true. Of course, wanting doesn't make it true.

And it's not that I find the 'real world' boring. I agree completely that it's a wonderful place.

But...it could be even better. I'd love to live forever, or even much longer than the potential allotted time I have to see 200 years from now. Or 500. I would love for various medical woowoos to be true, not only for the benefit I would reap and my quality of life improving, but for numerous other people.

Hell, I'd happily pass on a cure for me, for a woo woo cure for cancer...all cancer, being true.

I'll grant that moving objects with one's mind is the 'hard' way to do it but psi powers would be pretty cool! Heck, I'd settle for knowing about an afterlife where we all exist happily ever after.

If wishes were horses, then beggers would ride...wanting those things, and thinking they'd be wonderful, or amazing, doesn't make it so. Nor do I spend an inordinate amount of time sitting on my arse wishing. I enjoy speculative fiction quite a bit, and I'd love for a variety of things to be true and real...but I wholeheartedly agree that the world we do have is wonderful, amazing, and contains wonders that never cease to astound and move me.

 

[RC]

Irish Murdoch,

You have asked a very good question in a respectful manner. Unfortunately, I don't think you will get many responses from believers or the discussion that your question deserves. I've come to believe that this forum just doesn't promote healthy discussion between skeptics and believers.

Many of the responses on this thread demonstrate that, as they are filled with insults and patronizing theories on why people THINK believers want afterlife and the paranormal to be true. The term "woo-woo" is used everywhere (although not by you). That is a disrespectful term so how could believers be expected to participate in this thread?

I suggest if you really want to get some answers that you post the same question, in the same manner, on a couple of believer boards. If you do that, and don't attack or overly challenge the responses (seems like you're not the type that would do that), then you might get some interesting answers.

 

[CFLarsen]

Irish Murdoch,

You have asked a very good question in a respectful manner. Unfortunately, I don't think you will get many responses from believers or the discussion that your question deserves. I've come to believe that this forum just doesn't promote healthy discussion between skeptics and believers.

Many of the responses on this thread demonstrate that, as they are filled with insults and patronizing theories on why people THINK believers want afterlife and the paranormal to be true. The term "woo-woo" is used everywhere (although not by you). That is a disrespectful term so how could believers be expected to participate in this thread?

If you really feel this way - that skeptics are misrepresenting the views of believers - why don't you clarify what you believe in - and why? I'm not saying that you speak for all believers, far from it - you would, of course, only speak for yourself. But at least take the opportunity to explain why those rude skeptics are wrong.

As for being questioned, what do you expect? This is the JREF board, we question claims here. If you don't want to address the posters you consider rude, then don't! Put them on ignore! But don't take it out on the skeptics you don't think are rude. That is, at least to me, a profoundly childish attitude.

It's like saying that because you got scammed by a local Mexican the last time you visited Cancun, you subsequently refuse to speak to any Mexican worldwide.

I suggest if you really want to get some answers that you post the same question, in the same manner, on a couple of believer boards. If you do that, and don't attack or overly challenge the responses (seems like you're not the type that would do that), then you might get some interesting answers.

Come now, you are perfectly aware that skeptics are not welcome on believers' boards. You know that there is rampant censorship of anything that is not drooling acceptance of (insert belief here).

 

[Mercutio]

Irish Murdoch,

Many of the responses on this thread demonstrate that, as they are filled with insults and patronizing theories on why people THINK believers want afterlife and the paranormal to be true. The term "woo-woo" is used everywhere (although not by you). That is a disrespectful term so how could believers be expected to participate in this thread?

Really? You found this thread "filled with insults"? I re-read it, and did find a few...but it reminds me a bit of a demonstration I did in class a few years ago: I showed a film on tobacco advertising, and asked students which side they thought it came down on. Smokers all said it was an anti-smoking movie, non-smokers all thought it showed Big Tobacco as the victim of government persecution. (I overgeneralize just a bit--it was not 100%, but it was a very clear trend.) I'd love to see (perhaps another thread) which responses you personally found insulting or disrespectful

I suggest that most of the responses in this thread were good-faith attempts to understand and address the questions.

I suggest if you really want to get some answers that you post the same question, in the same manner, on a couple of believer boards. If you do that, and don't attack or overly challenge the responses (seems like you're not the type that would do that), then you might get some interesting answers.

This could be a very enlightening exercise. (I wonder if the very phrase "magical powers" would be found insulting to some)

 

[CFLarsen]

Really? You found this thread "filled with insults"? I re-read it, and did find a few...

I re-read it closely, and I cannot find just one "insult".

RC,

Could you point out just one "insult" in this thread?

 

[Sloe_Bohemian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for believers

btw- I've spent a lot of last week playing with the "believers" at Mia Dolan's psychic forum... it's nice to be back with adults.

Well, I suppose what I added on the end here isn't polite... but COME ON!!!! You try to spend a week begging people to be nice and constantly complimenting their every insult and then apologise some more for having even a basic education... it's GRUELING and I'd been more than polite to them.

The people in believer forums will NOT allow people to participate who aren't as deluded as them... I don't care how polite you are... to say otherwise is a lie.

So, please forgive me for implying that only skeptics are adults... but I sure missed the conversation on this board.








IF - my comments about the social situations that I suggest give way to (belief in the paranormal - a.k.a. "woo woo") are what you consider to be offensive, then that is very condescending to all the people who are a part of that social segment... they do exist and assuming that it is an insult to come from an underprivledged home... is the opinion of a bigot. Not eveyone can pick their parents and sometimes poverty or the social makeup of one's peers are beyond the control of young people... in fact about 100% of the time.