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A Loved One's Impending Death: A Test of Non-Faith

MrFrankZito

Thinker
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
226
In my nearly 25 years of life, rarely have I had the displeasure of looking death in the face. Unfortunately, that is the situation with which I currently must contend. My maternal grandfather, who has been sick with cancer for about a year, has been given a terminal prognosis. Although we are not sure how long he has—it could be weeks or months—everybody’s emotions are welling up as we prepare for the inevitable.

Although I never would presume to think my grief is comparable to that of my mother and her numerous siblings, it is a rather strange period in the life of an atheist, as well as a reflective one. I have some relatives who have put their faith in prayer as a method by which to help my grandfather, and who, at the very least, take substantial comfort from the notion that he, after death, will bask in the warm glow of Heaven. It is my judgment that prayer is ineffectual and the afterlife does not exist but, even armed with my scientific knowledge and a dogma-free mind, I cannot help but sympathize with the grief that motivates such behavior and ideas, among both my relatives and all families enduring the heartache of loss.

This clearly is not the appropriate venue to “disprove” prayer’s efficacy or the existence of an eternal soul [Anybody wishing to know my stances on those can read "Last Refuge for the Desperate" and "Soul Searching," respectively.] However, I believe I have something to add to the discussion with respect to why people respond with unreason when faced with impending tragedy.

First, I will address prayer. In my judgment, people pray in order to create the illusion of power when, in reality, they actually are powerless. When a loved one is dying of cancer, or trapped on a mountain after an avalanche, or lying in a hospital bed after suffering a terrible accident, one is not satisfied simply to invest one’s hopes in the doctors, or the mountain climber’s skills and training, or the accident victim’s ability to fight back from grievous injury. People, on an instinctual level, actually want to help their endangered loved one. When all accepted methods of support are either unavailable or exhausted, people pray for divine intervention. Although it has been proved that intercessory prayer does not actually do anything, it gives the praying person comfort, and a soothing illusion of renewed power in the face of prior powerlessness.

If this illusion makes people feel better in their time of greatest need, then I can endorse it. Comfort, even when it is attributable to a complete fabrication, is not something against which to fight.

The second issue—that of the afterlife—is even more emotional for me, as an atheist. When my grandfather dies, I recognize that I never will see him again. The day on which I die shall bring no heavenly reunion. Indeed, since one’s memory, personality and character reside in one’s brain—and cease to be when one’s brain dies—all the wonderful characteristics that are my grandfather will vanish entirely when his long struggle ceases. This is a reality from which I get no pleasure, to be sure. On this day, I certainly am not the brash atheist happily tearing down theistic constructions.

It is quite easy to see why people cling to ideas such as the afterlife, Heaven and an immaterial essence that survives corporeal death. It has been said that, without the fiction of an afterlife to which to look forward, big-brained animals such as we would live in a depression, endlessly wasting our lives thinking about the end of them. The illusion of Heaven is a way to avoid having to say the final goodbye to somebody to whom one does not want to bid farewell. In a moment of grief, of course, this bit of self-trickery is wholly understandable. I only hope that, among those preoccupied with an afterlife that does not exist, memories of happy times during earthly life are not forgotten.

On that sad final day, I know I will be left only with my memories. But those, luckily, are countless.

I vividly recall school events to which he gladly accompanied me. I remember family barbeques, innumerable birthday parties and holiday celebrations, and quiet times just chatting with him about my life, the family, politics or sports. For a very brief period of time, I actually lived with my maternal grandparents, and I recall that he always would be proud of me when I brought home a good test score or shared some knowledge I was fortunate enough to gain that day. At night, we would watch Married…With Children together, both appreciating the ability of good comedy to cross generational gaps and bring people closer together. I always shall remember his smile, his chuckle and his ability to warm the hearts of the many people he loved.

Although I know I will miss him terribly when he no longer is here, I take comfort in the reliable continuity of it all. Every living thing—plant or animal—is born, lives and, eventually, dies. The sad irony of life is that, at the moment of birth, one begins one’s trek on the long, winding path to death. But, to borrow a phrase, the “circle of life,” birth and death among all living things, unites us in a profound way with Mother Nature and the small blue planet on which we live. From this planet’s soil—the soil from which we sprang—came Einstein, the Tyrannosaurus rex and all manner of other wondrous creatures. This simple truth, wholly lacking in the supernatural or the metaphysical, is beautiful and ought to be admired.

When my grandfather dies, it will be a tough road, but, I am sure that with the help of my family, I will be able to move on, taking great comfort in the memories he has given me and the joys I have shared with him. For now, my family and I will focus on making him happy, comfortable and secure. And, of course, building more memories with which to keep warm.

__________________________________

My Case Against God
 
Very nice post FZ.

I lost my grandmother in 1994, but that was sort of an abstract death since she lived so far away. Losing my dad in 2001 touched me much closer to home and has had something of an effect on me.
 
I have been an atheist my whole life. When my mother passed away in 1999, I did not pray to god or become a believer in hopes that it would change things.

My mother, who was raised Roman Catholic but fell away from the church due to the brutality of the nuns at the school she attended, did not pray or return to believing,in hopes of a miracle being performed.

My father, who never believed, did not pray or become a believer. Nor did the rest of my atheist siblings.

Two of my sisters who found god after rough times in their lives, did indeed pray for a miracle.

Out of the eight members of the family, the only two that have troubles with my mother's death are the two religious ones. They are sure she is in heaven because she was a good person but they fail to see that she is not allowed in what they define as heaven. These two have a hard time even talking about our mother without breaking into tears and it ruining their day completely. The rest of us enjoy talking about her in a happy light. We joke about all the events of our childhood when our mother was our world and with admiration at her strength of character when it came to making the tough choices of life and teaching us what was important.

So, I don't agree when people say that religion has value as a tool of comfort in hard times. Religion takes the importance of an individual's life and trivializes it by putting the focus on a make believe god. Funerals should be a celebration of a person's life not another opportunity for religions to spread their poison.

MrFrankZito, I am truly sorry for what has happened to your grandfather. I hope you find all the comfort you need in your family and the memories of the great life your grandfather obviously lived.
 
Out of the eight members of the family, the only two that have troubles with my mother's death are the two religious ones.

I had a brother who committed suicide many years ago. It was rough on all of us, but my mom's really deep Catholicism seemed not to help a bit.

My dad's dying right now. It's actually not a tremendously bad thing. He's not in bad pain, just weak and sleeping nearly around the clock.

I think believers also have the problem that at some level they really know that this person is going to be gone for good. Even if they really do believe in afterlife, they've got to know that they will NEVER see them again in any way that is meaningfully like seeing them is when they're alive. I suspect that it's also a time when they realize that all their comforting God stuff just doesn't help.
 
Interesting comments....

I know that, in Chris Hitchens' new book, he argues that comfort religion provides actually is worthless because false comfort is no comfort at all. I suppose that makes sense but, from firsthand experience with other grieving relatives, there can be a palpable sense of relief in clinging to the delusion that one's family member will bask in the glow of Heaven. Is that any more harmful than a child's delusion of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? I don't know the answer to that, actually.

Unquestionably, though, focus on an imaginary afterlife does cheapen the single earthly life that does exist. That life should be cherished, as the immeasurably valuable gift it is.


A quote somebody recently recited to me:

The longest-lived and the shortest-lived man, when they come to die, lose one and the same thing.

Time is a sort of river of passing events, and strong is its current; no sooner is a thing brought to sight than it is swept by and another takes its place, and this too will be swept away.

Mark how fleeting and paltry is the estate of man - yesterday in embryo, tomorrow a mummy or ashes. So for the hairsbreadth of time assigned to thee, live rationally, and part with life cheerfully, as drops the ripe olive, extolling the season that bore it and the tree that matured it.

Think not disdainfully of death, but look on it with favor; for even death is one of the things that Nature wills.


--Marcus Aurelius
 
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One thing about the whole "preparing for the inevitable", has anyone in your family thought about recording his memories (and yours) while you can? I would recommend having a family member sit down with a recording device, and your grandfather, and recording everything he is willing (or able) to share. Also record those memories such as those you have shared with us.

Regardless of your faith, this can be a great comfort looking towards the future. Especially for those who may have few, or no, memories of the man himself.
 
One thing about the whole "preparing for the inevitable", has anyone in your family thought about recording his memories (and yours) while you can? I would recommend having a family member sit down with a recording device, and your grandfather, and recording everything he is willing (or able) to share. Also record those memories such as those you have shared with us.

Regardless of your faith, this can be a great comfort looking towards the future. Especially for those who may have few, or no, memories of the man himself.


That's a terrific idea!
 
It is my hope that someone shares the Gospel with him one last time if he is not saved...If he is saved your other saved relatives will mourn differently than those who have no hope!
 
It is my hope that someone shares the Gospel with him one last time if he is not saved...If he is saved your other saved relatives will mourn differently than those who have no hope!

"Good tase, this is jesus_freak. jesus_freak, this is good taste. I don't believe you've met."

I'm sorry about your grandfather; my grandparents were very distant, so I never got to know them well; if you had a better relationship with yours, I hope you will let your happy memories comfort you.
 
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A very eloquent post MrFrankZito. You write well.

My observations concur with yours. Most religious believers do gain comfort from their beliefs in such times.
 
Grandpa is dying.
==========
When my grandfather dies, it will be a tough road, but, I am sure that with the help of my family, I will be able to move on, taking great comfort in the memories he has given me and the joys I have shared with him. For now, my family and I will focus on making him happy, comfortable and secure. And, of course, building more memories with which to keep warm.
That seems a good course of action, regardless of belief or philosophy. His immortality is at the least in the memory of him passed down by his family, and in what he did for you that helped make you who you are, and what of that you pass on to your offspring, nieces, nephews, and your own grandkids, in time.

I sincerely hope you all can make his passing as peaceful as possible, for his and your sakes.

DR
 
To add to a great post...

I have been an atheist my whole life. When my mother passed away in 1999, I did not pray to god or become a believer in hopes that it would change things.

My mother, who was raised Roman Catholic but fell away from the church due to the brutality of the nuns at the school she attended, did not pray or return to believing,in hopes of a miracle being performed.

My father, who never believed, did not pray or become a believer. Nor did the rest of my atheist siblings.

Two of my sisters who found god after rough times in their lives, did indeed pray for a miracle.

Out of the eight members of the family, the only two that have troubles with my mother's death are the two religious ones. They are sure she is in heaven because she was a good person but they fail to see that she is not allowed in what they define as heaven. These two have a hard time even talking about our mother without breaking into tears and it ruining their day completely. The rest of us enjoy talking about her in a happy light. We joke about all the events of our childhood when our mother was our world and with admiration at her strength of character when it came to making the tough choices of life and teaching us what was important.

So, I don't agree when people say that religion has value as a tool of comfort in hard times. Religion takes the importance of an individual's life and trivializes it by putting the focus on a make believe god. Funerals should be a celebration of a person's life not another opportunity for religions to spread their poison.

MrFrankZito, I am truly sorry for what has happened to your grandfather. I hope you find all the comfort you need in your family and the memories of the great life your grandfather obviously lived.


Time flys; my mother died 2 yrs ago... I hated sitting there listening to that crap by the vicar.

She had problems, and didn't get to know my daughter, whom I think she would have loved; adored.

I cried almost uncontrollably when that casket was getting burned, to the sound of a song she loved [and which reminded me of her]...

I cried... because the life was ripped away from her years ago, not just when she died. I was sad because of the missed life she never will know!

And, I was filled with hatred for those corrupt faithers that profit from others time of sorrow.

When I cry, as I am now doing, it is for sorrow, love and contempt; a mixture of emotions caused by regret, hate and a feeling of helplessness.

But pray to IT... you must be pissing joking.

When I die I would love to have my ashes scattered; I have no intention of lining the pockets of faithers!

"The seagulls; they follow the trawler!"... Some French footballer. Not my strong point.

Griff... Cheer up! I have my health. For now!
 
It is my hope that someone shares the Gospel with him one last time if he is not saved...If he is saved your other saved relatives will mourn differently than those who have no hope!

Out of the eight members of the family, the only two that have troubles with my mother's death are the two religious ones. They are sure she is in heaven because she was a good person but they fail to see that she is not allowed in what they define as heaven. These two have a hard time even talking about our mother without breaking into tears and it ruining their day completely. The rest of us enjoy talking about her in a happy light. We joke about all the events of our childhood when our mother was our world and with admiration at her strength of character when it came to making the tough choices of life and teaching us what was important.


jesus_freak: Thanks for proving qayak's point.

Rather than focus on the individual--seeing to their comfort and ensuring that they know they are indeed loved and their life had great meaning--you'd rather wallow in fairy tales that make you feel better because you're unable to deal with the fact that their life is ending.

And so will yours.

It's no coincidence that extremely religious people also have the greatest fear of death and will grasp onto any illusion that seems to spare them from that fate.
 
Interesting comments....

I know that, in Chris Hitchens' new book, he argues that comfort religion provides actually is worthless because false comfort is no comfort at all. I suppose that makes sense but, from firsthand experience with other grieving relatives, there can be a palpable sense of relief in clinging to the delusion that one's family member will bask in the glow of Heaven. Is that any more harmful than a child's delusion of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? I don't know the answer to that, actually.

Comfort is inherently a subjective experience, something caused or made to manifest in different people by any number of ways.

Comfort is not contingent upon something that can be known or held or can be proven to be objectively true.

If you want to make the definition of comfort contingent upon what is "true", it would take away from the subjective reality of comfort, no?

Also, I don't know if I'd define Heaven to be a delusion since it so indefinable and so non-tangible that it can't be proven to be false.

Unquestionably, though, focus on an imaginary afterlife does cheapen the single earthly life that does exist. That life should be cherished, as the immeasurably valuable gift it is.

No, I would and could and do question this. Many persons believe that immortality makes the earthly life invaluable...mortality leading to oblivion bein inherently worthless, and begging to differ being a coping mechanism.

What would be immeasurable, by definition, would be immortality. Mortality could be measured and quantified. Immeasurability and materalism ought not mix, correct?

-Elliot
 
jesus_freak: Thanks for proving qayak's point.

Rather than focus on the individual--seeing to their comfort and ensuring that they know they are indeed loved and their life had great meaning--you'd rather wallow in fairy tales that make you feel better because you're unable to deal with the fact that their life is ending.

Meaning being another tricky word.

A believer could insist that meaning is a human construct dependent on human existence. Great meaning would follow from declarations by the living for the deceased, and the exercise of that is, too, something to make the living feel better.

If the issue is the fairy tale aspect, then whether or not it is a fairy tale would be the overarching question. As for feeling better, any response you have to death can be assigned to being something just to make you feel better.

Remembering a loved one? Why? What for? It's an exercise to make the living feel better, and to help us cope with a life ending.

Deconstruction could work both ways being my point.

It's no coincidence that extremely religious people also have the greatest fear of death and will grasp onto any illusion that seems to spare them from that fate.

I'm not sure if this has been objectively proven to be accurate. I'm sure you can supply anecdotes to back this up.

I'll also point out that the Gospels are NT are quite clear that believers ought not fear death. If you are saying that believers fear death in spite of this message, I'll agree, but I don't accept that the extremely religious fear death more than others just because you say it is so. Personally, I think the fear of death is pretty universal and some people do their damndest to convince themselves that others are more cowardly than themselves. Why that's so important to do...I have some theories, but whatever. We're all in the same boat, and we all have with death as we will. Calling other people cowards and what not...so what? Let people deal with death as they want to. Ubermenschianism can be comforting, that's what I get from your point.

-Elliot
 
Remembering a loved one? Why? What for? It's an exercise to make the living feel better, and to help us cope with a life ending.


Agreed, but I wrote nothing about remembering a loved one after death; indeed, funerals are primarily for the living. Here's what I wrote:

"...seeing to their comfort and ensuring that they know they are indeed loved and their life had great meaning..."

Ideally this happens while they are still alive. To have such last moments wasted by selfish, dogma-chanting people who place no particular importance on this existence other than as a staging point for eternity only intensifies the tragedy.

If you are saying that believers fear death in spite of this message, I'll agree, but I don't accept that the extremely religious fear death more than others just because you say it is so.
[snip]
Calling other people cowards and what not...so what? Let people deal with death as they want to. Ubermenschianism can be comforting, that's what I get from your point.


The fear of death ranks as one of the primary motivations for the existence of religion; this isn't just my opinion. IIRC Michael Shermer's book How We Believe references studies that support this assertion, but I'll have to double-check since I don't have the book in front of me at the moment.

Again, re-read my post; I called no one a coward. A fear of death is perfectly natural and I would never criticize someone for it. My comment was regarding people who claim a religion is true primarily because it promises immortality (and therefore soothes one of their greatest fears) and who then foist their delusion upon others as "truth" at entirely inappropriate times (i.e. someone's death bed) because it makes them feel better.

Finally, I am not an ubermensch and I never claimed to be nor do I promote such a philosophy.
 
Agreed, but I wrote nothing about remembering a loved one after death; indeed, funerals are primarily for the living. Here's what I wrote:

"...seeing to their comfort and ensuring that they know they are indeed loved and their life had great meaning..."

Ideally this happens while they are still alive. To have such last moments wasted by selfish, dogma-chanting people who place no particular importance on this existence other than as a staging point for eternity only intensifies the tragedy.

I agree that we should love people while they are alive.

Anything that happens can be judged to be a waste of time...any conversation, any interaction, anything which involves an exchange of money...to that extent I agree with your point.

If you're fixated on people invovled in the last days of life, and the immediate after, it is true there do exist industries which make money at these times (clergy, funeral homes, psychologists, florists, caterers). It's capitalism, life goes on, people will spend money as they see fit. You'll have to accept that people find meaning and comfort in funerals. You don't. I get that. I'm not going to tell you that you should. Your reaction to others heartfelt needs is to call priests selfish, and say that the people who deal with them are intensifying their tragedy. Anybody could turn that on you. If you're in a funeral and you're wallowing in contempt for a priest, that's you being selfish and missing the big picture. All I'm gettng is name-calling out of this one.

The fear of death ranks as one of the primary motivations for the existence of religion; this isn't just my opinion. IIRC Michael Shermer's book How We Believe references studies that support this assertion, but I'll have to double-check since I don't have the book in front of me at the moment.

I don't disagree with this. If we were all immortals I doubt we'd have priests and churches.

Again, re-read my post; I called no one a coward. A fear of death is perfectly natural and I would never criticize someone for it. My comment was regarding people who claim a religion is true primarily because it promises immortality (and therefore soothes one of their greatest fears) and who then foist their delusion upon others as "truth" at entirely inappropriate times (i.e. someone's death bed) because it makes them feel better.

Point taken. Ignoring the word delusion which I don't think is applicalbe, it would seem that the most appropriate time to talk about immortality would, in fact, be on someone's death bed. Also, anything that anyone says to another could be declared to be a selfish, making the speaker feel better, sort of thing, so to that extent I agree. I don't think you have the authority to declare that someone on a death bed who hears about immortality fails to feel better because of that.

I suggest you don't have a priest around you whilst you are dying. It appears you won't get anything out of it and it'll just get you angry and stuff.

Finally, I am not an ubermensch and I never claimed to be nor do I promote such a philosophy.

OK. Thanks for the exchange.

-Elliot
 
Based upon your responses, I assume you find some value in religion, whereas I do not. I think most of our disagreements stem from that point.

I suggest you don't have a priest around you whilst you are dying. It appears you won't get anything out of it and it'll just get you angry and stuff.


The first sentence actually made me laugh because it was, well, funny.

For the record, however, I'm not angry, although most religious folk that I know would very much like to cast me into the role of an "angry atheist". I do have strong feelings regarding predatory proselytizers, especially those that circle like vultures above the dying. I've witnessed this behavior firsthand and it is truly disgusting. In one particular case, the buzzards had not deigned to visit the soon-to-be-deceased for many years (as he did not share their religious views, I should add), but they arrived in a flock as soon as word spread that the man was finally checking out. After roosting around the hospital bed, one reached under a black wing and withdrew a sheaf of papers, then proceeded to read with great aplomb the contents therein, namely, a transcription of a conversation he had with his sick, elderly father shortly before he died. The gist of the pathetic tale was that old man awoke one night with a first-hand revelation about the nature of god (as he had just spoken with him) and "proof" that Christianity was the "one, true faith". (The fact that the old man was raised Christian, as was his entire family, had absolutely nothing to do with that conclusion, I'm sure.) I obtained a copy of the document and wasn't shocked to read a sad record of the last chaotic neural firings of a highly-medicated and pain-wracked human being. The family, however, took great pride in what they considered to be a divine revelation from the mouth of their very own father and took every opportunity, including a significant portion of the last hours of a man suffocating from lung cancer, to relate what a very great honor it was indeed.

I know, I know; the family just wanted to share the Good News.

And who am I to question the last testament of a dying old man?

OK. Thanks for the exchange.


Likewise.
 

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