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A few questions about the hijackings

Undesired Walrus

Penultimate Amazing
Undesired Walrus
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Apr 10, 2007
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I seem to remember in Betty Ong's phonecall, she mentioned that they (Flight attendents) tried to get into the cockpit, and it was locked. I presume that means all 5 hijackers were in there? And is it known yet what method the hijackers used to get in?

Also, It may seem a bit stupid, but I have always wondered how the hell the hijackers found their way back to New York and DC. How did they know where to go?
 
How does any pilot know where to go? How do planes ever get where they're supposed to?
 
Undesired Walrus said:
And is it known yet what method the hijackers used to get in?
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All they had to do was to wait for a flight attendent to open the cockpit door and then storm the cockpit.

ETA: IIRC, a couple of the hijackers made a dry run about about a month before the attacks. They would have learned the flight crew's routine during that flight.

Steve s.
 
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Not just compasses.. Don't these planes have moving maps that show all airports and navigation beacons?

It can't have been that hard to write down some travel instructions and then looked out the window for landmarks. They were trained pilots and knew exactly where they wanted to go.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
I seem to remember in Betty Ong's phonecall, she mentioned that they (Flight attendents) tried to get into the cockpit, and it was locked. I presume that means all 5 hijackers were in there? And is it known yet what method the hijackers used to get in?
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I gather there's a number of potential explanations. It was a FAA regulation to keep cockpit doors locked during flights, however this was often not observed, and in most cases all flight attendants possessed a key.

Options include storming the cockpit when a flight attendant has the door open, forcing a flight attendant to unlock the door, or demanding that the pilots open the door under threat of causing injury to a passenger.

As far as I am aware all of the hijackers on AA11 retreated into the cockpit.



Undesired Walrus said:
Also, It may seem a bit stupid, but I have always wondered how the hell the hijackers found their way back to New York and DC. How did they know where to go?
Click to expand...

Bear in mind that the pilots amongst the hijackers had commercial pilot licenses, had flown on Boeing simulators, and had used Microsoft Flight Simulator extensively.

An example is something I recall about the hijackers on one flight using the autopilot control to designate a heading that is present in MS Flight Simulator. However normally airline pilots use a different autopilot that is NOT present in MS Flight Simulator. The hijackers did not use this auto pilot system at all.

In the case of AA77 the hijackers dialed in the transmitter at Reagan International Airport and followed this beacon all the way to Washington DC. Finding out the frequencies and positions for these beacons would not be difficult as they are a widely distributed piece of information necessary for navigation.

It would be much like wondering that the hijackers flights all were scheduled to depart at about the same time.

-Gumboot
 
the "pilot" hijackers had commercial flight training and were instrument rated for the planes they were on, they would be able to put the plane on a airport beacon (JFK for new york or dulles for washington) and elt the autopilot do the work for them, ones they were close to the airport it would be easy enough to navigate to manhattan or the pentagon by sight
 
Heck, I know it wasnt around in 2001, but using Google Earth you can get the Lat and Long for any spot on earth.

-Gumboot
 
Because of Hani Hanjour's 360 turn, is that likely to indicate he was lost? I think I heard that the pentagon wasn't the actual target but he went for it out of a random sighting?
 
More likely he came in too high and had to lose altitude the only sane way possible.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Because of Hani Hanjour's 360 turn, is that likely to indicate he was lost? I think I heard that the pentagon wasn't the actual target but he went for it out of a random sighting?
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ive heard it wasnt the intended target, but the loop was to descend, he was much too high when nearing washington/arlington to hit anything, this could just be a misjudgement of how long it would take to get there, or maybe he wasnt paying attention to the autopilot (or maybe he was lost, who knows)
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Because of Hani Hanjour's 360 turn, is that likely to indicate he was lost? I think I heard that the pentagon wasn't the actual target but he went for it out of a random sighting?
Click to expand...


It was actually more of a 270o turn. We don't really know why he did it. A good theory is that he screwed up and was way too high when he spotted The Pentagon, so performed the turn to bleed off altitude.

A number of Al Qaeda members have addressed the target selection process, which indicates that Osama bin Laden selected The Pentagon as a target (this is in keeping with his previous attacks on US military/government installations, not civilian ones). Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is said to have selected the WTC, which is again in keep with his previous activities - including supporting his nephew in the 1993 WTC bombing.

-Gumboot
 
gumboot said:
It was actually more of a 270o turn. We don't really know why he did it. A good theory is that he screwed up and was way too high when he spotted The Pentagon, so performed the turn to bleed off altitude.

A number of Al Qaeda members have addressed the target selection process, which indicates that Osama bin Laden selected The Pentagon as a target (this is in keeping with his previous attacks on US military/government installations, not civilian ones). Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is said to have selected the WTC, which is again in keep with his previous activities - including supporting his nephew in the 1993 WTC bombing.

-Gumboot
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And, I may be wrong, but didn't the Commision report says that KSM indicated that United 93 was heading to capitol hill? Which would be more likely as I guess the White House would be hard to find and crash..

I dont know, I just took it as at face value when Paul Greengrass had Ziad Jarrah put the picture of Capitol on the joystick, which I thought was a nice touch.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
And, I may be wrong, but didn't the Commision report says that KSM indicated that United 93 was heading to capitol hill? Which would be more likely as I guess the White House would be hard to find and crash..
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Yes, apparantly the Capitol was jointed agreed by KSM and OBL. The value of these three targets is immediately obvious, in addition to the fact that all are distinct and relatively easy to find.

Pentagon: US Military power
WTC: US financial power
Capitol: US political power

Another consideration... the other obvious target is the White House. The selection of the Capitol over the White House perhaps indicates the decent level of understanding that Al Qaeda had of the US and how democratic countries operate. The destruction of the White House and killing of the President would certainly be a blow, but would mainly just piss Americans off.

In contrast the destruction of the Capitol and potential death of many Congressmen and Senators would be devastating.

Another consideration is the seldom reported and poorly collaborated suggestion that the attack had an additional stage - an assassination of Bush earlier in the day using the same method used to kill Mahood. This plot supposedly failed when the middle eastern "news crew" were denied permission to interview Bush by the USSS. The similarities between this story and the assassination of Mahood only days earlier are eerie, however we must also consider that the only mention of this event is a local newspaper, with no further mention of it. At best it is speculation. At worst it is a complete fabrication.

-Gumboot
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Also, It may seem a bit stupid, but I have always wondered how the hell the hijackers found their way back to New York and DC. How did they know where to go?
Click to expand...

Airplanes have navigational equipment. The hijackers were pilots and knew how to use this equipment. That one seemed very obvious to me.
 
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