Below are excerpts of a recent email exchange I've had with a very good friend of mine, "Laggek", who supports acupuncture and regularly receives acupuncture treatment.
I'm throwing this in the group, so to speak, hoping that some of you will provide interesting feedback/criticism/information. My friend knows I'm doing this, and she will probably read this thread now and then, and possibly even participate.
vlix wrote:
Laggek replied:
vlix returned:
All right then, any comments? Does anyone have some information about, for example, the animal testing Laggek mentions? Want to point out flaws in my or Laggek's thinking? Perhaps someone knows more about the number of relevant scientific studies of the effects of acupuncture?
Looking forward to any comments, and in any case, thanks for reading!
I'm throwing this in the group, so to speak, hoping that some of you will provide interesting feedback/criticism/information. My friend knows I'm doing this, and she will probably read this thread now and then, and possibly even participate.
vlix wrote:
F*ck it, I know you don't like to discuss acupuncture with me anymore, but I can't help myself, your assertion that I "cannot understand" acupuncture... stimulated me. I don't like to think that there is stuff I "cannot understand". Sure, there is plenty of stuff I don't understand, and probably never will, but I prefer to think it wouldn't be IMPOSSIBLE.
Here's one thing I definitely don't understand: I don't understand why you find it so difficult to agree that the effectiveness of acupuncture can be tested, and that therefore, its effectiveness SHOULD be tested in order to find out whether it does something, or whether its supposed effects are down to something else. I mean, I'm not even saying (I really am not) that acupuncture doesn't work; in my view, of all "alternative" healing practices, acupuncture is one of the least silly, at least when you forget the utterly implausible yin/yang/meridian explanations. I'm just saying that the odds are against acupuncture being effective, and that the default position on such a matter should be: "it doesn't do anything until you prove it does". I mean, what the hell is so radical about my opinion here? Perfectly sane and down to earth, I would think. What, according to you, do I not UNDERSTAND?? What is so horrible to you about proving that acupuncture is effective? And if it is as effective as you say it is, why hasn't it been done already?
Please, just answer me this: do you believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to test acupuncture? Do you believe that scientifically testing the effects of acupuncture (not the method!) is somehow meaningless, because acupuncture is inherently unscientific, does not follow the same paradigm as biomedicine, or something like that? Do you believe that the results of such a test prove nothing, because they would not be representative of real-world, uncontrolled application? If your answer to these questions is "yes", then I will acknowledge right here and now that indeed, we will never agree, and I will try not to be provoked by you, no matter how much I LOVE being provoked by you. If however, the answer to these questions is "no", we have much to talk about.
Be honest though, don't just choose "yes" because you want me to finally shut up ;-)
[...]
Laggek replied:
The answer is no. Of course I think it is POSSIBLE to test the effects of acupuncture by what you call scientific means, and I also think that it SHOULD be done, because I think if it WOULD be properly done, even western medicine would accept that acupuncture IS an effective way to treat very many kinds of conditions. Not all, obviously, but neither is biomedicine effective therapy to every condition.
Pleased? If I were of similar mind set as you, I could also dig out studies that HAVE proven acupuncture effective. Because studies that even you might accept HAVE been done, albeit very few of them. I believe the attitude within the biomedical faculty is slowly changing, and more open-minded interest toward alternative therapies will lead to more unbiased research. But the process is slow.
To my knowledge, there is also such a pilot project going on in one of the university hospitals/Faculty of Medicine in Finland (in Kuopio, I think), where the aim is to set up a large scale research project to test various aspects of acupuncture by standards of western science, or what you call simply Science.
Probably similar research is being carried out elsewhere.
The largest corpus of clinical experience with acupuncture is obviously from China, as there acupuncture is one form of treatment included in public health care, and used also in treating serious conditions such as paralysis, and as anaesthetic in operations etc, not just an incompetent doctor or physiotherapist poking needles here and there to relax your muscles or cure your headache, like in Western countries is commonly done.
What I would like to see are studies that indeed concentrate on the effects. E.g. from China it should be easy to collect a large enough amount of data in treating various diseases and pathogenic conditions treated (successfully) with acupuncture, to prove it does indeed work.
To my knowledge also some animal testing has been done with acupuncture, with similar results as in humans, thus excluding an explanation solely based on placebo effect.
But as I said, I don't NEED you to believe or "know" that acupuncture is effective. But I am happy if you are interested and open minded. I still don't want to take on the task of PROVING you anything. If I find relevant studies, I'll send the links your way.
I know you always want scientific proof, statistics etc. I understand that, and you are free to feel that way. For me it is enough proof what I have experienced myself, and what at least 30 people I personally know have reported. E.g. with migraine. If acupuncture is not effective, or is based on more or less just placebo effect, how do you explain at least 10 people I personally know (have to deduct those ten people cannot be the only ones to which this applies, only they are those I personally know), have stopped having migraines completely after having suffered from it for decades? This after visiting the acupuncturist 3-6 times. And the migraines never returned? Would be a rather strange coincidence, if for all of them it just happened to go away for some natural reason right at the time they were treated by acupuncture.
And I know many other stories like this. On many different conditions, including difficult hereditary degenerative conditions. When those patients have gone to their doctor after acupuncture, the doctor has been baffled by the sudden improvement.
Of course my friends and acquaintances do not make a scientifically reliable statistic, but I am sure such a thing could be compiled if there was interest to do so. Do you not understand that a lot of medical research is also based on money and other interests, and not only done based on pure scientific interest or out of interest to help people? In whose interest is it to further research on acupuncture? Not in the interest of people with money.
Besides its other benefits (such that it is chemical free for example, so it does not further stress the liver and other organs of an already sick person), acupuncture is also a very cheap method of treatment. With this I do not mean it is necessarily cheap for a patient in the West, as for acupuncture you do not get any compensation from public health care funds etc, and the acupuncturists also have to make a living, while being heavily taxed. I mean to say that the method itself is dirt cheap: no expensive meds or equipment involved. Obviously the practitioner needs to be well trained, and that is an expense, but currently here only to him or herself, as the state pays nothing for it. My point is, that acupuncture (like some other traditional, effective treatments) would also be a very good supplemental kind of health care in all developing countries, that simply cannot afford to offer high standard western style health care to their people. But, in general, there is less interest in researching stuff that mainly effects the poor/is in the interest of the poor.
Enough said for now. And don't just dismiss everything I say just because unlike you, I cannot (am not willing to spend the time and energy) pull up always some web link to a research supporting my views. I could refer you to some studies, and perhaps one day I will, but do you understand that it would require a lot of effort from me? Both because it is true, studies like that are NOT easy to find, but also because I am not a computer boy wizard, i.e. do not know where to search and how.
[...]
vlix returned:
Brilliant answer, thanks! Now, don't you think we understand each other a little better than yesterday? Don't you think we've made progress? I think it's still possible to learn from and about each other on this subject.
You hopefully understand that I'm not quite as closed-minded on acupuncture as you thought; I'm prepared to acknowledge acupuncture works, I just want to see measurable results.
I on the other hand, am extremely relieved that your answer to my final questions was "no", and that we indeed still have something to talk about. I believe that more than a few supporters of acupuncture would have answered "yes", and I'm glad you didn't.
I would not dare to dismiss anything you wrote, I think you mentioned a few VERY interesting things in your email, stuff that I will need to think about. [...] I'll definitely have to look into those animal trials you brought up, I think I've heard of those before, but I don't remember the details. I also respect and completely understand that you don't want to spend valuable time on research and digging up studies.
Of course I disagree with some of the things you say. For example, I do not think scientific research in alternative therapies is biased towards the position that all alternative medicine is useless. If anything, I believe it may be the other way round, since many scientists who want to test alternative therapies already suspect that they do work and are therefore eager to find positive results. Scientists are only human beings, they make mistakes, and they can be biased, even when their job requires them not to be. Yes, they can be biased against alternative medicine, but they can also be biased in favour of it. This is why it is important to realize that multiple trials by separate groups are necessary in order to obtain credible results.
In addition, it is, I suspect, quite hard (though not impossible) to conduct a truly fool-proof test of the effects of acupuncture. With pills, you can easily test for placebo effect by using fake pills. It's much harder to perform fake acupuncture. This makes proper double-blind procedures difficult to implement.
I also disagree with you on the number of studies that have already been done on acupuncture. You think there are very few. I think there have been quite many already, and as far as I know, most (but of course, not all) of them find no evidence that acupuncture is effective. I have no numbers to back this up, but it's the impression I got from various reading on the subject. I might be wrong.
[...]
All right then, any comments? Does anyone have some information about, for example, the animal testing Laggek mentions? Want to point out flaws in my or Laggek's thinking? Perhaps someone knows more about the number of relevant scientific studies of the effects of acupuncture?
Looking forward to any comments, and in any case, thanks for reading!