A case where I would support torture.

Freakshow

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By "torture", I'm not talking about sleep deprivation and being photographed nude. I'm talking real torture. Things you don't even want to imagine.

Here is a scenario where I would support it...

We know that a nuclear bomb has come into the country. We know it is a matter of days before it goes off. But we don't know which city it is in, much less knowing exactly where it is in that city.

We capture a member of the organization that has planted the bomb. He says "Yep, I admit it. I carried the thing across the border myself, and I know exactly where it is. And it is going off in less than 48 hours. But I'm not telling you where it is. I've watched CNN, I know you guys don't torture. So tough. You'll just have to watch hundreds of thousands suffer and/or die. I'm not talking!"

I would say to the goverment: go for it. Knock yourself out. Do anything it takes to get him to cough up the info.

Is there anyone here that wouldn't support it? If you wouldn't, what course of action would you recommend?
 
Freakshow said:
"But I'm not telling you where it is. I've watched CNN, I know you guys don't torture."
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We know immediately he's not the sharpest tack in the box. He'll hold out for some Jujubees. Maybe a box of Goobers at most.

To get serious, what two weapons would you use in the event of a total zombie/SHTF scenario?
 
shecky said:
We know immediately he's not the sharpest tack in the box. He'll hold out for some Jujubees. Maybe a box of Goobers at most.

To get serious, what two weapons would you use in the event of a total zombie/SHTF scenario?
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The CNN crack was just meant as a bit of humor. :)

But the question is serious. In this scenario, would you support torture? Or would you still say that torture should never be used...not even in this scenario?
 
Freakshow said:
By "torture", I'm not talking about sleep deprivation and being photographed nude. I'm talking real torture. Things you don't even want to imagine.

Here is a scenario where I would support it...

We know that a nuclear bomb has come into the country. We know it is a matter of days before it goes off. But we don't know which city it is in, much less knowing exactly where it is in that city.

We capture a member of the organization that has planted the bomb. He says "Yep, I admit it. I carried the thing across the border myself, and I know exactly where it is. And it is going off in less than 48 hours. But I'm not telling you where it is. I've watched CNN, I know you guys don't torture. So tough. You'll just have to watch hundreds of thousands suffer and/or die. I'm not talking!"

I would say to the goverment: go for it. Knock yourself out. Do anything it takes to get him to cough up the info.
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Let twenty Al Queda members gang-rape Freakshow's five year old twin daughters if that's what it takes to make the guy talk, just do it.
 
OK everybody, since some people apparently don't have the brains to figure this out without being spoon-fed the obvious...

Replace "anything it takes" with "anything it takes to the terrorist only, without harming any innocent people".
 
We capture a member of the organization that has planted the bomb. He says "Yep, I admit it. I carried the thing across the border myself, and I know exactly where it is. And it is going off in less than 48 hours. But I'm not telling you where it is. I've watched CNN, I know you guys don't torture. So tough. You'll just have to watch hundreds of thousands suffer and/or die. I'm not talking!"

I would say to the goverment: go for it. Knock yourself out. Do anything it takes to get him to cough up the info.
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And the guy has only one weakness: His nieces, the twin daughters of Freakshow. The only thing that can make him talk, is to see them being hurt.
 
Bjorn said:
And the guy has only one weakness: His nieces, the twin daughters of Freakshow. The only thing that can make him talk, is to see them being hurt.
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Ignored. I don't put up with people that are deliberately obtuse just because they don't have the backbone to actually argue the issue at hand. Bye, Bjorn.
 
In your specific scenario, yes I would support torture. As long as we are painting scenarios, let's go for another. You know somebody that has all the info on the terrorist plot is in at the Luxor in Las Vegas, but you know nothing else about him or her, and you know that the terrorists have already gone into radio silence as the attack is under 12 hours away. You do have enough interrogators for the thousands of guests currently at the Luxor. Do you torture them all?
 
Donks said:
In your specific scenario, yes I would support torture. As long as we are painting scenarios, let's go for another. You know somebody that has all the info on the terrorist plot is in at the Luxor in Las Vegas, but you know nothing else about him, and you know that the terrorists have already gone into radio silence as the attack is under 12 hours away. You do have enough interrogators for the thousands of guests currently at the Luxor. Do you torture them all?
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No, absolutely not.
 
Freakshow said:
OK everybody, since some people apparently don't have the brains to figure this out without being spoon-fed the obvious...

Replace "anything it takes" with "anything it takes to the terrorist only, without harming any innocent people".
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Sorry, I didn't see this before. Maybe "didn't have the brains to figure this out" should be replaced by "I didn't mean what I wrote"?
 
Freakshow, Bjorn has made a valid point. I think you should address it.
 
Donks said:
What if it was down to 2 people, the terrorist and an innocent bystander? Torture them both?
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Is the issue at this point one of finding out which of the two is the terrorist? Meaning... do we consider it possible/likely that within an acceptable amount of time, we can use standard investigative techniques to research each individual?

BTW...in this scenario, I still don't support torture.
 
Freakshow said:
Is the issue at this point one of finding out which of the two is the terrorist? Meaning... do we consider it possible/likely that within an acceptable amount of time, we can use standard investigative techniques to research each individual?

BTW...in this scenario, I still don't support torture.
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The issue would be to find out who the terrorist is. The point of my scenarios is this: in the real world, where you don't know if your government can guarantee that they have the right guy, do you support them torturing somebody who could end up being a terrorist with no valuable info, a terrorist mastermind, an innocent bystander or something in between?
 
Bjorn said:
And the guy has only one weakness: His nieces, the twin daughters of Freakshow. The only thing that can make him talk, is to see them being hurt.
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Freakshow said:
Ignored. I don't put up with people that are deliberately obtuse just because they don't have the backbone to actually argue the issue at hand. Bye, Bjorn.
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Hmm. I think Bjorn's hypothetical is no more outlandish than yours. It seems he's merely using an illustration/example so that you'll pause to contemplate a less clinical and more personal scenario. And ask the question, "What do you, Freakshow, do now?"
 
Donks said:
The issue would be to find out who the terrorist is. By the point of my scenarios is this: in the real world, where you don't know if your government can guarantee that they have the right guy, do you support them torturing somebody who could end up being a terrorist with no valuable info, a terrorist mastermind, an innocent bystander or something in between?
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Very good question.

I would only support torture when there was absolutely no doubt that they had the right person. Which is why I presented a scenario in which the person admits to being someone that both has the needed details of the plot and is an active participant in the plot itself. I think those factors are crucial to the scenario.
 
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