9/11 Hijacker Doubles Theory??

T.A.M.

Penultimate Amazing
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Recently, over at the Democratic underground, I have been discussing with some, their theory on hijacker "doubles". They point me to this site

http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.31

which is fairly extensive.

Now I am not sure that mismatches in timelines, really means there were doubles, but certainly if two sources place Atta in different parts of Florida at the same time than (a) someone is wrong, or (b) there were two people running around with his name and general appearance.

Anyone already debunked this theory? If not, anyone interested in helping me go through that site and see what is real, what is misinterpreted, what needs further review, etc...it is a very large collection of data...

TAM
 
I tried about 6 of their links, none of them worked. In general though, the tone is baffling.

Why are they so surprised that an international terrorist appears to move around a lot, or appears to have multiple residences, or appears to have anomalies in his documents? They guy was a criminal, with his fingers in some very unpleasant pies, why do they assume they'll be able to understand his every move when only given fragments of information?
 
And another thing, if he was concerned about being monitored he would probably contrive a bunch of unexpected or confusing things just to throw people off the scent. Despite him being dead for five years it still seems to be working.
 
As do I...but 911myths has little on this topic. It is relatively new, and seems to be just gaining some momentum. I have recently seen D.A. bring it up, so I think it will likely be going into LC:FC. For this reason and others, I am going to try to see what exactly is fact, and what is mis-interpreted, and what is just simple fiction.

if you find any good sources, this thread would be a great place to put them.

TAM
 
Now I am not sure that mismatches in timelines, really means there were doubles, but certainly if two sources place Atta in different parts of Florida at the same time than (a) someone is wrong, or (b) there were two people running around with his name and general appearance.
Click to expand...

My money is on a) here. Out of interest, what do the people at Democratic Undergound see as the significance of b) if it were correct?
 
As usual, it is hard to garnish from them an organized idea of the significance. I gather, as best I can, that they feel that "doubles" is something that Al-Qaeda normally doesnt do either because they dont have the resources, the need, or in some cases, the time to do so...but, state sponsored terrorism always uses doubles...

For more clarity, here is the original post over there that started the discussion:

This seems to be irrefutable to me.

by John Doe II.

In the exhibits of the Mousssaoui trial there is further proof that doubles have been at work. For people unfamiliar with the double theory please check out the timeline of the alleged hijackers
http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewf...
(starting with the summary of the results).
People already familiar with it certainly are aware of the fact that one event where most certainly doubles have been at work is Atta and Al Shehhi drinking on September 7, 2001 in Shuckums (Hollywood, FL) as it is basically impossible that Atta could have caught his flight to Baltimore that he officially took.
Now the exhibits contain also highly interesting chronolgies on the alleged hijackers.
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exh...
Open the one on Atta (OG00020.02 at the bottom of the page)
Here you find now
On Sep 7 a wire transfer from Al Shehhi's and Atta's account happened on Sep 7 at 15:58 in Fort Lauderdale.
This pushes the beginning of the drinking in Hollywood to later than 4.15 p.m. or somehow the alleged hijackers interrupted their session.
Now open the file on Al Shhehi (open OG00020.01 at the bottom of the list). Here you find:
Al Shehhi made on Sep 7 at 16:56 in Deerfield Beach an ATM withdrawal fom Saeed Al Ghamdi's account and was taken on video.
At the very same time he's drinking at Shuckums in Hollywood.

Atta took as officially stated in the already mentioned chronology on Atta he did take Flight 2719 from Fort Lauderdale to Baltimore on September 7, 2001. According to the BTS the plane was scheduled for 3:15 p.m.
Therefore Atta is on a flight to Baltimore while he is still witnessed drinking at Shuckums for hours....!

The drinking in Shuckums has been witnessed and widely reported:
How do you reconcile the presence of Atta and Al Shehhi at the same time of the drinking somewhere else.

Further info here:
http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewt...

TAM
 
T.A.M. said:
On Sep 7 a wire transfer from Al Shehhi's and Atta's account happened on Sep 7 at 15:58 in Fort Lauderdale.
This pushes the beginning of the drinking in Hollywood to later than 4.15 p.m. or somehow the alleged hijackers interrupted their session.
Click to expand...

There are numerous possible explanations for supposedly overlapping times like this. The most obvious is whether Al Shehhi and Atta have to be present at the bank at the time the wire transfer was made. This is just assumed to be true by the double fanatics, but there is no reason to believe this. I suspect it is quite common for wire transfers of small amounts of money (this was for $200.00) to be processed as paperwork at the end of the day. Ergo no real time conflict.

The Shuckums incident gets some discussion at Wikipedia. As you can see, there is widespread disagreement among media sources as to who was at the bar, on what date, and what they drank. Complicating matters is that the bar tab was paid in cash; hence there is no way of knowing if they were really even there. So to assume that it's proven that they were there from 3:00-6:00 on September 7 is a leap of faith.

I tend to look at this as about the equivalent of the no-planers; entertaining to watch but unlikely to prove anything other than that these folks are grasping at straws.
 
Brainster:

Thanks for the pov.

The latest over at the Democratic Underground, that I have gotten myself into, is in regards to Ahmad Mahmoud, of Pakistani Intelligence, and whether his meeting with USG on 9/11 implies an inside job. I know little of it, but it does seem slightly suspicious, if you look at it from within their context (The DU guys). What is your take on it? Any good sources on this stuff, sources I can trust to be "Real" source?

TAM
 
T.A.M. said:
Brainster:

Thanks for the pov.

The latest over at the Democratic Underground, that I have gotten myself into, is in regards to Ahmad Mahmoud, of Pakistani Intelligence, and whether his meeting with USG on 9/11 implies an inside job. I know little of it, but it does seem slightly suspicious, if you look at it from within their context (The DU guys). What is your take on it? Any good sources on this stuff, sources I can trust to be "Real" source?

TAM
Click to expand...

The $100,000 wire transfer all goes back to one unsourced story in the Times of India, which may not be the most reliable source of information on Pakistan. It is not mentioned in the 9-11 commission report or cited in the Atta timeline that was included in the Moussaoui trial.

There is a Washington Post story that confirms the 9/11 breakfast meeting with Porter Goss and others, so that part appears to be true.

But if you think about it, the $100,000 wire transfer story makes zero sense from the MIHOP point of view. First, you have Mahmoud giving $100,000 to Atta, who we "know" didn't hijack any planes. Then you have the Times of India story, which at least implies that Mahmoud was fired from his job as the head of the ISI because the Americans were angry at him for funding the terror operation. But of course if 9-11 was an inside job, why would they be angry at him? It's just a square peg that they're trying to hammer into their round conspiracy hole.
 
playing CTers advocate for a moment:

they would say that he was fired because the "real media" got ahold of it, as did legimate politicians, who would have "outed" him, so the USG allowed Mousharreff to "retire/fire" him to get him off the radar.

When I argue with them they say the $100,000 transfer is not even up for debate, so they don't even consider it in doubt.

I dunno. I am not well enough versed in the area to debate it legitimately with them. I will likely just concede this to them, do some reading on it, and then comeback to it...
 
CTers like to deal in extremes. If the government aren't legendary crusaders, holy and unflinching in their dedication to righteousness, utterly uncompromising in their values, they must be evil scheming murderers with souls of ice and veins pumping crude oil.

Of course this is just not true. International politics is, and always has been, a grey area. You're motivated by trying to achieve what you think is best for your country, and youdo what you think is the right thing, based on what you know at the time. As such you often end up dealing with people you'd rather not.

I mean, look at the current situation with Iran. Iranian state television boradcasts music videos in which they depict the United States as satan, and the US Government has repeatedly labelled Iran as a major threat to world peace. Yet these two nations are involved in diplomatic discussions.

-Andrew
 
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