7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

[Elind]

There are a lot of apologists about here, and many who considered these poor detainees to be innocent tourists. Two of these seven, and there are undoubtedly more, have been killed and one captured. Four still hunted.

I'm just curious if anyone is still willing to advocate releasing more of them?

 

[a_unique_person]

I have never said they weren't guilty of anything, the Taliban ran one of the most repressive regimes on earth. What worries me is the process. From start to finish, it has been a travesty of justice. When they were emptied of all 'intelligence', they were just set free?

If you aim to be free and just, you have to act free and just. Otherwise, you are no better than them. The basic principle now appears to be that if the US govt suspects you of doing something they can classify arbitrarily as suspicious, they can lock you up, torture you, and deny you any rights. All of a sudden, you are doing just what the Taliban do.

 

[The Fool]

There are a lot of apologists about here, and many who considered these poor detainees to be innocent tourists. Two of these seven, and there are undoubtedly more, have been killed and one captured. Four still hunted.

I'm just curious if anyone is still willing to advocate releasing more of them?

what is your basic problem with due process? What have you got against the presumtion of innocence?

Is Pointing the finger and call witch enough to lock someone away indefinitely?

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

what is your basic problem with due process? What have you got against the presumtion of innocence?

Is Pointing the finger and call witch enough to lock someone away indefinitely?

I make a distinction between civil or criminal activity in peacetime and war or terrorism. I don't presume innocence by anyone carring weapons with the Taliban/ Al Qaeda, or similar ilk.

I don't point fingers and call witch; I call a spade a spade. Don't want to be a spade? Don't dig your own hole and apologize constantly for those who would kill you, and me.

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

I make a distinction between civil or criminal activity in peacetime and war or terrorism. I don't presume innocence by anyone carring weapons with the Taliban/ Al Qaeda, or similar ilk.

I don't point fingers and call witch; I call a spade a spade. Don't want to be a spade? Don't dig your own hole and apologize constantly for those who would kill you, and me.

So what of the people in Georges dungeon that were not carrying weapons with the Taliban/ Al Qaeda????

You are correct, you don't point the finger and yell witch, you point the finger and yell Terrorist...with similar levels of evidence.

OK....I'm calling you a terrorist. Should that be enough for me to lock you away indefinitely? No? What about if i'm wearing an american military uniform when I yell the magic word....is that enough?

 

[Elind]

I have never said they weren't guilty of anything, the Taliban ran one of the most repressive regimes on earth. What worries me is the process. From start to finish, it has been a travesty of justice. When they were emptied of all 'intelligence', they were just set free?

If you aim to be free and just, you have to act free and just. Otherwise, you are no better than them. The basic principle now appears to be that if the US govt suspects you of doing something they can classify arbitrarily as suspicious, they can lock you up, torture you, and deny you any rights. All of a sudden, you are doing just what the Taliban do.

They were set free on the basis of taking them at their word and giving them the benefit of the doubt. Obviously wrongly in a good number of cases as to be expected with fundamentalists.

What worries me is the lack of common sense in people like you. You want to treat prisoners of war as common criminals; but actually international law makes a distinction that you won't. Your approach is classic apologist and appeaser, and if you have your way we lose.

Yes we do some things the Taliban and the like do. We kill them if we can't capture them. But when we capture them we don't torture or behead them as a matter of policy (don't quote the inevitable excesses that will occur from time to time). Your problem is that you see yourself as essentially the same as them, and if you can't see the difference then you are one of those that Stalin called "useful idiots". I remember many such during the days of the Soviet empire. Which side were you on?

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

So what of the people in Georges dungeon that were not carrying weapons with the Taliban/ Al Qaeda????

You are correct, you don't point the finger and yell witch, you point the finger and yell Terrorist...with similar levels of evidence.

OK....I'm calling you a terrorist. Should that be enough for me to lock you away indefinitely? No? What about if i'm wearing an american military uniform when I yell the magic word....is that enough?

I'm not sure I follow much of this, but I'll try. You seem to say that it's really hard to tell if someone is a terrorist. What the hell- let's just be nice and call them enemy combatants. I suspect you don't think we are at war and this is all a political game where nasty politicians round up poor goatherders who are just carrying grenade launchers to protect their flock.

Secondly you clearly say that anyone with an American uniform is an SOB out to imprison innocent tourists who shoot at them. Personally I find that insulting and on reflection I think I will lay you rest with your chosen label.

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

I'm not sure I follow much of this, but I'll try. You seem to say that it's really hard to tell if someone is a terrorist. What the hell- let's just be nice and call them enemy combatants. I suspect you don't think we are at war and this is all a political game where nasty politicians round up poor goatherders who are just carrying grenade launchers to protect their flock.

Ahhhh...I think I'm starting to see the problem, you actually have no idea who you have locked up there and what they are locked up for. Do you imagine they were all captured in combat when carrying weapons? Do you imagine they were all shooting at people? Have you made any effort at all to find out who they are and where they were taken from? What of my fellow citizen who was kidnapped in Pakistan with not a weapon in sight?? Is a wink from the US army good enough in his case?


Secondly you clearly say that anyone with an American uniform is an SOB out to imprison innocent tourists who shoot at them. Personally I find that insulting and on reflection I think I will lay you rest with your chosen label.

point out where I clearly say that.
What I clearly say is that as long as the US army tell you that its ok you are happy to go along with it....throwing in the gutter the very principles your nation was founded on.

Please try to get some background before attempting to participate.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Uh... Does anyone have a news link to this event? I haven't been able to find anything and -call me a loony!- I just don't trust Elind's take on it.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Ah-ha!

Interesting article. I see it as the sort of situation you can get yourself into when you completely ignore basic due process. Just think, if only they'd done it right the first time...

 

[epepke]

I have never said they weren't guilty of anything, the Taliban ran one of the most repressive regimes on earth. What worries me is the process. From start to finish, it has been a travesty of justice.

I agree.

 

[a_unique_person]

They were set free on the basis of taking them at their word and giving them the benefit of the doubt. Obviously wrongly in a good number of cases as to be expected with fundamentalists.

What worries me is the lack of common sense in people like you. You want to treat prisoners of war as common criminals; but actually international law makes a distinction that you won't. Your approach is classic apologist and appeaser, and if you have your way we lose.

Yes we do some things the Taliban and the like do. We kill them if we can't capture them. But when we capture them we don't torture or behead them as a matter of policy (don't quote the inevitable excesses that will occur from time to time). Your problem is that you see yourself as essentially the same as them, and if you can't see the difference then you are one of those that Stalin called "useful idiots". I remember many such during the days of the Soviet empire. Which side were you on?

Totrure was much more a matter of routine, it appears, than the exception.

 

[Kerberos]

What worries me is the lack of common sense in people like you. You want to treat prisoners of war as common criminals; but actually international law makes a distinction that you won't. Your approach is classic apologist and appeaser, and if you have your way we lose.

Guees again, it isn't "people like us" who opose calling them prisoners of war:Bush says no POW status for detainees

 

[Savagemutt]

Re: Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

I make a distinction between civil or criminal activity in peacetime and war or terrorism. I don't presume innocence by anyone carring weapons with the Taliban/ Al Qaeda, or similar ilk.

I don't point fingers and call witch; I call a spade a spade. Don't want to be a spade? Don't dig your own hole and apologize constantly for those who would kill you, and me.

Either they should've been classified as criminals and subject to our justice system, or they should've been classified as prisoners of war and subject to the Geneva Convention. Not this nether-world of "detainees" the Bush administration created.

 

[MRC_Hans]

There are a lot of apologists about here, and many who considered these poor detainees to be innocent tourists. Two of these seven, and there are undoubtedly more, have been killed and one captured. Four still hunted.

I'm just curious if anyone is still willing to advocate releasing more of them?

I don't know about others, but I don't advocate releasing them. I advocate put them to trial or release them. If you think they are guilty, then why not put them on trial? If you don't think they are guilty, then why not release them?

There is simply no getting around it: The only reason for continued detaiment is that you believe they are guilty, but do not expect to be able to prove it.

It is not acceptable for a country that claims to be free and democratic to keep people imprisoned indefinitely without trial. That is one of the things you go to war to stop others from.

Hans

 

[Flo]

There are a lot of apologists about here, and many who considered these poor detainees to be innocent tourists. Two of these seven, and there are undoubtedly more, have been killed and one captured. Four still hunted.

I'm just curious if anyone is still willing to advocate releasing more of them?

There's another way to look at that mess: they might perfectly have been "innocent tourists" but have embraced terrorism after 2 years of being branded as such without evidence, denied basic rights, and suffering torture ...

 

[Elind]

Uh... Does anyone have a news link to this event? I haven't been able to find anything and -call me a loony!- I just don't trust Elind's take on it.

Try harder; just a teeny little bit

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

There's another way to look at that mess: they might perfectly have been "innocent tourists" but have embraced terrorism after 2 years of being branded as such without evidence, denied basic rights, and suffering torture ...

I'm definitely getting a bunch of apologist comments here.

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

I don't know about others, but I don't advocate releasing them. I advocate put them to trial or release them. If you think they are guilty, then why not put them on trial? If you don't think they are guilty, then why not release them?

There is simply no getting around it: The only reason for continued detaiment is that you believe they are guilty, but do not expect to be able to prove it.

It is not acceptable for a country that claims to be free and democratic to keep people imprisoned indefinitely without trial. That is one of the things you go to war to stop others from.

Hans

No. You don't get it. Putting prisoners of war (enemy combatants) on trial is supposed to be against the principles of international law. Prisoners are to be held until the end of hostilities. If that is a lifetime; so be it.

Is there a smiley for apologists?

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 7 ex-Gitmo prisoners return to terror

Either they should've been classified as criminals and subject to our justice system, or they should've been classified as prisoners of war and subject to the Geneva Convention. Not this nether-world of "detainees" the Bush administration created.

Which parts of the geneva convention are they not being subjected to? You think there is a big difference between prisoner of war and enemy combatant or detainee?