100 years ago today

Puppycow

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Wow. Today is the day it all started.

Sarajevo marks 100 years since killing of Archduke Ferdinand


28 June 2014

The shots fired by the Bosnian Serb on 28 June 1914 sucked Europe's great powers into four years of warfare.

Bosnia's Serbs, Croats and Muslim Bosniaks are still divided over the role Princip played in bringing tensions to a head in Europe in 1914, with counter-commemorations planned by Bosnian Serbs.

In Austria, Franz Ferdinand's great-granddaughter and family will be holding events at the family castle at Artstetten, near Vienna, where he is buried.

Differing interpretations
Leaders of Serbia and some Bosnian Serbs are boycotting official events, which they say are designed to incriminate Serbs.

On Friday, Serbs in Bosnia unveiled a statue of Princip in eastern Sarajevo, seen by them as a national hero who ended years of occupation of the Balkans by the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Perhaps the most pivotal day in history in the last 100 years or longer?
 
Some have argued that this incident is overrated, believing that Austro-Hungary would have found some other pretext to attack Serbia, but I personally can't think of a more pivotal day.

I agree. WWI may have been inevitable, but the timing was decided 100 years ago today.
 
I agree. WWI may have been inevitable, but the timing was decided 100 years ago today.

If this had not happened then World war one might not have happened for a few years. Then it would have been a lot different. Aircraft would be much better, tanks might have been developed and used much earlier.
 
Some have argued that this incident is overrated, believing that Austro-Hungary would have found some other pretext to attack Serbia, but I personally can't think of a more pivotal day.
Probably, Bismark's "damn foolish thing in the Balkans" was inevitable and with the alliances in place everything else would follow logically.

If this had not happened then World war one might not have happened for a few years. Then it would have been a lot different. Aircraft would be much better, tanks might have been developed and used much earlier.
Mmmm, I'm doubtful there'd have been much improvement in less than a decade or so; aircraft design was improving slowly and people had been talking about armoured fighting vehicles (like poison gas) since the Crimea.
That said, an earlier war might have been less destructive.
 
Mmmm, I'm doubtful there'd have been much improvement in less than a decade or so; aircraft design was improving slowly and people had been talking about armoured fighting vehicles (like poison gas) since the Crimea.
That said, an earlier war might have been less destructive.
Only if it had been short. In the course of a long war the more destructive weapons would have evolved and been deployed. That happened in the American Civil War.

The Franco-Prussian war was very short, but both France and Germany considered its lessons and introduced new weapons soon afterwards.
 
Wow. Today is the day it all started.

Perhaps the most pivotal day in history in the last 100 years or longer?
We watched the BBC's "37 Days" recently about the lead up to the conflict, following the assassination - one of the best TV or film dramatisations I've seen for a long time (though I was slightly distracted throughout as Emperor Palpitine seems to have been British Foreign Secretary at the time).

Yuri
 
We watched the BBC's "37 Days" recently about the lead up to the conflict, following the assassination - one of the best TV or film dramatisations I've seen for a long time (though I was slightly distracted throughout as Emperor Palpitine seems to have been British Foreign Secretary at the time).

Yuri

Yes that was an excellent bit of TV, well worth catching for folks who haven't seen it yet.
 
I was watching something about this on the news last night. In Sarajevo, a statue of Gavrilo Princip was being unveiled.

Why?
 
I was watching something about this on the news last night. In Sarajevo, a statue of Gavrilo Princip was being unveiled.

Why?
According to the Guardian
In Istocno Sarajevo, Gavrilo Princip is still lauded by many as a national hero who fought against Austrian oppression. Milorad Dodik, the republic's strongman prime minister, is expected to open a new park and name it after the assassin. In the Communist Yugoslav era, Princip was regarded as a revolutionary hero who fought for the freedom of all southern Slavs, but now Bosnia is independent it is largely Serbs who cling to this view.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ivided-archduke-franz-ferdinand-assassination

All manner of strange things and people are commemorated by statuary.
 
According to the Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ivided-archduke-franz-ferdinand-assassination

All manner of strange things and people are commemorated by statuary.

Indeed they are.

Interestingly there was also a recreation of the event, staged by some Bosnian Serbs, although it doesn't sound quite like those recreations that are performed by hobbyists who like dressing up:

Saturday's centennial of the world-altering assassination will be marked by other Bosnian civic and political leaders with a concert by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra and other events that Serbian and Bosnian Serb leaders plan to boycott.

Jovan Mojsilovic, the actor who played Princip in the theatrical presentation during the statue-unveiling ceremony, called the Vienna orchestra's visit to Sarajevo a "pure provocation," the Reuters news agency reported.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-bosnia-serbs-princip-ww1-20140627-story.html
 
All manner of strange things and people are commemorated by statuary.
I think it was in Brisbane years ago I was walking through a park and saw a a small monument for those persons who took part in a punitive raid on a group of native Australians. It seems that some white settlers murdered a dozen Aborigines during the raid; not something to be proud of in today's more politically correct climate. Attached to the decades old stone was a new plaque stating opposition to the views presented by the people who originally erected the monument.

Ranb
 
"Dedicated to those Brave Pioneers of a New Land"

"Dedicated to the Victims of the Pioneers who already Lived in the New Land"

"Dedicated to the dead babies of the Pioneers killed by the Families of the Victims of the Pioneers"

"Dedicated to the People who got rid of the Pioneers from Where They Used to Live Because They Were Causing a Nuisance"
 
Wow. 100 years ago was the start of World War I. Now we are getting closer to the prophetic wars in the Middle-East.
 
Wow. 100 years ago was the start of World War I. Now we are getting closer to the prophetic wars in the Middle-East.
Wow! Seven hundred years ago was the climax of the war between Scotland and England. Wow! Three hundred years ago was the end of the War of the Spanish Succession. Wow! Two hundred years ago Napoleon surrendered to his enemies. So what? Dud God prophesy about these things?

Your prophetic wars had better start soon, Tom or you'll have to rub God's prophetic word out of your Bible with ink eraser.
 
I think it was in Brisbane years ago I was walking through a park and saw a a small monument for those persons who took part in a punitive raid on a group of native Australians. It seems that some white settlers murdered a dozen Aborigines during the raid; not something to be proud of in today's more politically correct climate. Attached to the decades old stone was a new plaque stating opposition to the views presented by the people who originally erected the monument.

Ranb
Yes, I suppose it is a sign of "political correctness" to deprecate murder of indigenous peoples. I think the opposition plaque is well motivated. Are there any in Tasmania?

Here's a similar example of contrition from England.
In 1955, the Anglican Church placed at the site of Little Hugh's former shrine at Lincoln Cathedral a plaque bearing these words: By the remains of the shrine of "Little St. Hugh".

Trumped up stories of "ritual murders" of Christian boys by Jewish communities were common throughout Europe during the Middle Ages and even much later. These fictions cost many innocent Jews their lives. Lincoln had its own legend and the alleged victim was buried in the Cathedral in the year 1255.
Such stories do not redound to the credit of Christendom, and so we pray:
Lord, forgive what we have been,
amend what we are,
and direct what we shall be.
it's no longer politically correct to accuse Jews of murdering Christian children. And rightly so, I believe.
 
Mmmm, I'm doubtful there'd have been much improvement in less than a decade or so;

Possibly not in technology used, but every year the war was delayed would have been another couple of thousand km of rail network in Russia, and another few percent of increased industrial output.

Germany was already operating on fairly narrow margins in 1914 as it was. It's one of the reasons the army was all for it then.
 
We watched the BBC's "37 Days" recently about the lead up to the conflict, following the assassination - one of the best TV or film dramatisations I've seen for a long time (though I was slightly distracted throughout as Emperor Palpitine seems to have been British Foreign Secretary at the time).

Yuri
:D That's not the worst thing Grey's been accused of...
An excellent mini-series.

Indeed they are.

Interestingly there was also a recreation of the event, staged by some Bosnian Serbs, although it doesn't sound quite like those recreations that are performed by hobbyists who like dressing up:



http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-bosnia-serbs-princip-ww1-20140627-story.html
Oh, good grief. Should we expect a replay of the assassination?

Possibly not in technology used, but every year the war was delayed would have been another couple of thousand km of rail network in Russia, and another few percent of increased industrial output.

Germany was already operating on fairly narrow margins in 1914 as it was. It's one of the reasons the army was all for it then.
Yes, though I've got doubts about Russia's ability to actually keep up their economic growth, given the internal instability. For example labour unrest in the 1912-14 period was growing fairly steadily, and the Tsarist response was generally more repression. For example the Lena goldfield strike (1912) which ended in a massacre of >230.

This was not the sort of climate that encouraged foreign investment. In fact the instability it was one of the factors in the 1912 decision of the Rothschilds sell out their interests in Russian oil to Royal Dutch Shell.

While the military began their planned effort to extend the railway system in western Russia in August 1912 (supposedly to be complete by 1917), little was actually accomplished before the beginning of the war. Likewise the 'Great Programme' was passed in June 1914, but the prospect of it actually being carried through without the outbreal of war was slight.

In fact without the war reactionaries like Maklakov (appointed Interior Minister in late 1912) might have succeeded in their attempt to persuade the Tsar to overthrow the Duma. The dismissal in February 1914 of the highly capable Prime Minister Kokovtsov didn't help; he was replaced by the frankly inept Goremykin who failed to manage the reactionaries like Maklakov and the Agriculture Minister, Krivoshein.
Then the Ukranians became restive in March 1914 when the centennial celebration of the poet Shevchenko was banned, while in May the expuslion of Socialist deputies from the Duma triggered a series of strikes; 50,000 workers struck in St. Petersburg alone.
In July there was a series of violent strikes, and even more violent suppressions of them, starting at the Baku oilfields.

Then there's the effect of the apocalyptic movement, which had caught hold amongst the peasantry; in the Spring of 1912 persistent rumors began to circulate, initially in Novgorod but spreading rapidly, that the anti-Christ had been born and the world is about to end. This was exacerbated by other factors, such as the serialisation of Belyi’s apocalyptic novel 'Petersburg' in 1913. And of course the stories about Rasputin...

It's entirely possible that without the events of July/August 1914 the Russian Empire, rather than modernising, might have collapsed under the strain of it's own inept leadership and internal strife..



Slightly OT but I'm currently researching an alternate war starting in 1904 as an Anglo-Russian naval war over the Dogger Bank Incident. A fascinating period.
 
Yes, though I've got doubts about Russia's ability to actually keep up their economic growth, given the internal instability.
In general terms, then, do you reject the view that had there been no Great War, Russia could have evolved into a Western-style polity, perhaps as envisaged by the Constitutional Democrats? Such a state would presumably have been more conducive to economic growth, as one of the fruits of social modernisation.

On the other hand, it might be argued that the immense preponderance of the peasantry as a proportion of the total population made such a development rather improbable, even if the European war had not broken out in 1914.
 

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