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NY Times Poll: Large Majority of DEMOCRATS Oppose Transgenders in Women's Sports

AmyStrange said:
Nope. Wrong, I'm not confused. I don't even know if trump ever said anything about this topic, but I do know that the maga weirdoes believe everything he says, and I'm not like them.

I'd like to have some facts rather than just believe other folks' interpretations and beliefs from some flawed data that is based on confirmation bias.

If you want to believe it, fine, but don't expect me to be like the maga weirdoes.

I like facts, not speculation.


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I'm not sure what this topic has to do with Trump or MAGA.
Unless it's just a "since these people hold this view, I must take the opposite view."

The point of this thread, as I see it, is that the majority of democrats disagree with this particular issue related to trans rights and that it might have hurt democratic voter turnout in the election. The that the party was running on a platform point that the majority of its own voters disagreed with created an issue that may have given an advantage to the opposition.

Whether this actually played a significant role, I don't know.
 
TomB said:
I'm not sure what this topic has to do with Trump or MAGA.Unless it's just a "since these people hold this view, I must take the opposite view."

The point of this thread, as I see it, is that the majority of democrats disagree with this particular issue related to trans rights and that it might have hurt democratic voter turnout in the election. The that the party was running on a platform point that the majority of its own voters disagreed with created an issue that may have given an advantage to the opposition.

Whether this actually played a significant role, I don't know.
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It doesn't. It was theprestige who started that idea.

All I was saying was that unlike maga weirdoes (who believe everything trump says), I don't believe everything the folks in here say.

I like facts and not speculation.

And on that note, do you know of any websites that keep track of all the trans in women sports and how they ultimately fared?


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AmyStrange said:
Exactly, and it's no insult to a man to recognize that some women can kick their a***.
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I would be no match for Clark in basketball, or Williams in tennis, or Ronda Rousey in a fight. But I’m not an athlete, I’m not a match for even most amateur male athletes either. I don’t feel bad about that, there’s no reason to. But it doesn’t change the fact that Clark wouldn’t be competitive in the NBA.

Sex segregation exists in sports for a reason. Without it, we would not have professional women in almost any sport. That’s just the reality of sexual dimorphism.
 
Ziggurat said:
I would be no match for Clark in basketball, or Williams in tennis, or Ronda Rousey in a fight. But I’m not an athlete, I’m not a match for even most amateur male athletes either. I don’t feel bad about that, there’s no reason to. But it doesn’t change the fact that Clark wouldn’t be competitive in the NBA.

Sex segregation exists in sports for a reason. Without it, we would not have professional women in almost any sport. That’s just the reality of sexual dimorphism.
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Sorry, but that's not a fact.

It's pure speculation.

Now, if they actually put Clark in the NBA, and she wasn't competitive, then you'd have something solid that could make it a REAL fact.


Sex segregation exists in sports for a reason. Without it, we would not have professional women in almost any sport. That’s just the reality of sexual dimorphism.
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That might be true, but it's still speculation.


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AmyStrange said:
That unlike the maga weirdoes, I'd like some proof with that BS.

Like for example, have you found any sites that list all the trans in women's sports and how they fared?
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Here's a pretty good starting point. I was actually surprised at how many cases there are of men taking women's spots on the podium. Since I'm a long-time cyclist, I thought I'd look there. They had almost 3200 entries. So I decided to narrow it down--only US races, only in 2024 and only where the transwoman actually won the race. There were precisely 100 (!) such cases.
 
Brainster said:
Here's a pretty good starting point. I was actually surprised at how many cases there are of men taking women's spots on the podium. Since I'm a long-time cyclist, I thought I'd look there. They had almost 3200 entries. So I decided to narrow it down--only US races, only in 2024 and only where the transwoman actually won the race. There were precisely 100 (!) such cases.
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Thank you. Interesting stuff, and at least better than just speculation, but nowhere can I find the total number of trans in women's sports. That would put a better perspective on the numbers and also make it more credible. Got a website for that?


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AmyStrange said:
True, but it also means that maybe not every male will almost always beat every woman.
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True, but we're talking about competitive sport.

Instead of trying to write off-the-cuff general responses to each other that are then taken as laws set in stone, let's talk about at what level of competition you think trans women should be or should not be allowed to compete against women, and in basketball, your chosen example.

Do you really think transwomen should be allowed to compete against women in the NBA? What about in high school?
 
Brainster said:
Here's a pretty good starting point. I was actually surprised at how many cases there are of men taking women's spots on the podium. Since I'm a long-time cyclist, I thought I'd look there. They had almost 3200 entries. So I decided to narrow it down--only US races, only in 2024 and only where the transwoman actually won the race. There were precisely 100 (!) such cases.
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UPDATE: The first cycle one I clicked on (2024 Collegiate MTB National Championships- SAT-STXC), the trans (Kylie Small) didn't actually win, but I'll check the others later.

Again, thanks for the info.


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Orphia Nay said:
True, but we're talking about competitive sport.

Instead of trying to write off-the-cuff general responses to each other that are then taken as laws set in stone, let's talk about at what level of competition you think trans women should be or should not be allowed to compete against women, and in basketball, your chosen example.

Do you really think transwomen should be allowed to compete against women in the NBA? What about in high school?
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Good points.

If folks want to ban trans from women's sports, fine, but if the teams themselves (professional or educational) don't care, then who am I to tell them they shouldn't do it?

And if the teams don't want trans on their team, then who am I to force them to do it.

I also don't like men trying to secretly be women and not be up front about it with the rest of the team. That's not fair either (and pretty disgusting too).

Someone on here (I think it was theprestige) said that MLB was open to women being major league ball players, so I guess they'd also be open to a trans being one too.

These are just my opinions. Your mileage may vary of course.


ETA: From the site Brainster gave me, there are a lot of stories about women (and girls) who were threatened to keep a trans identity secret, and if that's true (which I suspect it is), then THAT REALLY, REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!


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AmyStrange said:
Sorry, but that's not a fact.

It's pure speculation.
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No, it isn’t. It’s based on the fact that athletic ability is a key performance factor in basketball, and men are much more athletic. They are stronger, faster, and have more endurance. All these things make a major difference in basketball, and the best women are still well behind the best men. That isn’t speculation, that’s a fact.
AmyStrange said:
Now, if they actually put Clark in the NBA, and she wasn't competitive, then you'd have something solid that could make it a REAL fact.
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That’s like saying it’s pure speculation that i couldn’t compete in the NBA because hey, I’ve never tried.
AmyStrange said:
That might be true, but it's still speculation.
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Why are you in denial about the biological differences between men and women? They are both obvious to the general public and well studied scientifically. This isn’t a mystery. Your ignorance is basically willful at this point.
 
Ziggurat said:
No, it isn’t. It’s based on the fact that athletic ability is a key performance factor in basketball, and men are much more athletic. They are stronger, faster, and have more endurance. All these things make a major difference in basketball, and the best women are still well behind the best men. That isn’t speculation, that’s a fact.

That’s like saying it’s pure speculation that i couldn’t compete in the NBA because hey, I’ve never tried.

Why are you in denial about the biological differences between men and women? They are both obvious to the general public and well studied scientifically. This isn’t a mystery. Your ignorance is basically willful at this point.
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I'm not in denial of the biological differences between men and women. I'm not ignorant either.

What's ignorant is using speculation as a fact.

If Clark was allowed to play in the NBA, and she wasn't competitive, I'd agree with you, because then it wouldn't be speculation any longer.

I'm willing to go that far with you, but you're not willing to even consider the idea that Clark could hold her own in that league, and in my opinion, that's willful ignorance.

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There seems to be no shortage of data which suggests that in most types of sports, a well trained male has a competitive advantage over a well trained female. IE the male is statistically more likely than not to beat the female.

However, there doesn't seem to be much data re transgender males vs females.

So what do we want to prove? That a transgender male athlete has a competitive advantage over a female athlete or that he doesn't?
 
psionl0 said:
There seems to be no shortage of data which suggests that in most types of sports, a well trained male has a competitive advantage over a well trained female. IE the male is statistically more likely than not to beat the female.

However, there doesn't seem to be much data re transgender males vs females.

So what do we want to prove? That a transgender male athlete has a competitive advantage over a female athlete or that he doesn't?
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Actually, that's not true. Brainster gave me a link to a website that does that very thing:

www.hecheated.org

HeCheated.org

A Record of Male Athletes in Female Sport
www.hecheated.org www.hecheated.org


The first one I clicked on (2024 Collegiate MTB National Championships- SAT-STXC), the trans (Kylie Small) didn't win. Five women actually beat him, but I'm going to check more of the entries later.


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AmyStrange said:
Actually, that's not true. Brainster gave me a link to a website that does that very thing:

www.hecheated.org

HeCheated.org

A Record of Male Athletes in Female Sport
www.hecheated.org www.hecheated.org
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That whole article seems to be about men saying that they are female, joining a women's athletic team and disadvantaging other women because they are male (and getting accolades for it).
 
psionl0 said:
That whole article seems to be about men saying that they are female, joining a women's athletic team and disadvantaging other women because they are male (and getting accolades for it).
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I agree, but they also have a section with individual events and how the trans fared. It looks to me like they have hundreds of these individual events listed.

Like I already mentioned, here's the first one I checked on: (2024 Collegiate MTB National Championships- SAT-STXC). The trans (Kylie Small) didn't win. Five women actually beat him, but I'm going to check more of those later for a comparison.

This is the list of individual events with the name of the trans in each one:


And this is the results:

my.raceresult.com

2024 Collegiate MTB National Championships- SAT-STXC, 11/16/2024 : : my.race|result

2024 Collegiate MTB National Championships- SAT-STXC, 11/16/2024, Bentonville
my.raceresult.com my.raceresult.com


ETA: As I looked down the list of events, I noticed there were a lot of trans that came in first, but it also looks like there were just as many that didn't.

I'll have to do a better evaluation later.


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AmyStrange said:
Like I already mentioned, here's the first one I checked on: (2024 Collegiate MTB National Championships- SAT-STXC). The trans (Kylie Small) didn't win. Five women actually beat him, but I'm going to check more of those later for a comparison.
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That's 5 out of a field of 44 which doesn't dispel the idea that a transgender male has an advantage over a female (not that they are guaranteed first place).

Like I said, which way do we want the stats to point? If a transgender male has no particular advantage then there should be no objection to him competing in women's sports (although I guess quite a few of these women would object to sharing a change room with him).
 
psionl0 said:
That's 5 out of a field of 44 which doesn't dispel the idea that a transgender male has an advantage over a female (not that they are guaranteed first place).

Like I said, which way do we want the stats to point? If a transgender male has no particular advantage then there should be no objection to him competing in women's sports (although I guess quite a few of these women would object to sharing a change room with him).
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True, but it's not much of an advantage if five women were able to kick his a***!

The thing that bothered me (according to the opening article) is that he was probably able to sneak into the women's locker room, and in my opinion, that's disgusting.


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