Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[LondonJohn]

You know how things bug you and you don't know why....?

How on earth did Andrea Vogt get a copy of a recording of Amanda Knox on Nov 17, 2007?

I mean, for the BBC3 documentary... how does a virtual unknown American, living in Italy, who has anonymous sources (Edward McCall's Wiki) and not much else...

... how does she get a copy of a recording of a Perugian Law Enforcement interrogation session?

How does one do that? Can I get one? What other recordings are out there? Does anyone in the BBC wish to do a documentary on Andrea Vogt's access to PLE?

It was from December 17th 2007. But other than that, I agree with what you're saying here.

I think the answer might just have something to do with Vogt's irresponsible and journalistically-unethical closeness to Mignini and other prosecutors. You know, the sort of closeness that results in the "journalist" getting privileged access to prosecution material, in return for guarantees (either explicitly or implicitly) to promote the prosecution's position. The sort that no responsible, ethical journalist would ever allow himself/herself to do. That sort

 

[Desert Fox]

It must be hard for the Defense to try to build a defense when the prosecution has 10 different lawyers and each has a different motive and pile of accusations that are impossible to argue when they are mostly just made up accusations.

But then this time it seems all the debating about evidence was pretty much ignored, and the Guilty verdict tossed out there to appease the ISC who will now agree with themselves.(I predict).

So the extradition issue will be it for Amanda's concerns and Raffaele will do time, while the lawyers try to "turn it around" somehow.

The Witch Hunters will celebrate.

What is the difference between a guilty verdict in Italy or North Korea as far as evidence?

 

[Diocletus]

Changing the treaty would be a slap in the face to a NATO ally that came in handy when Libya needed to be bombed. It would imply that convictions secured in Italy were not to be regarded as sound and had to be proved all over again in the US. Amanda is important but is she that important?

Well, what I think is important is that we have extradition treaties with nations who have justice systems that are fundamentally competent and fair. I'm sure that was the assumption at the time the us entered into the extradition treaty with Italy. But really, we should not be extraditing innocent us citizens at the whim of some face-saving, anti-American cabal in Italy. And frankly, Italy should not be requesting such.

That's why I think there are some significant steps to be taken within Italy and at the echr level before we even start talking about a us extradition proceeding. Any thought of extraditing Amanda Knox could get shut down long before a request ever makes it to the us authorities.

 

[christianahannah]

It was from December 17th 2007. But other than that, I agree with what you're saying here.

I think the answer might just have something to do with Vogt's irresponsible and journalistically-unethical closeness to Mignini and other prosecutors. You know, the sort of closeness that results in the "journalist" getting privileged access to prosecution material, in return for guarantees (either explicitly or implicitly) to promote the prosecution's position. The sort that no responsible, ethical journalist would ever allow himself/herself to do. That sort

Whether the recent snippet of audio of Amanda's December 17, 2007 interrogation had been played in Italian media I can't say, but other parts of the interrogation were heard on Italian media. Who gave these audio bits to the media I don't know, however, it was several years ago.

I think there may even have been a mention and a link to the interrogation on this forum but I may be misremembering.

 

[Diocletus]

What is the difference between a guilty verdict in Italy or North Korea as far as evidence?

In North Korea you get your own trial. On Italy, you can get convicted based on some other guys trial.

 

[kwill]

This is the case in a nutshell... it is the bare-timeline of the case. What's telling is that guilters cannot do this.... it would lead to so many "what ifs" and "is compatible withs", and arrows, and "it's my belief thats" that the whole thing would be a mess...

.... just like this case.

Can this graphic be shared around?

Of course.

It's easy to guess what the guilters will complain about: nothing on the timelines themselves, all of which are what that Matt guy used to call "hard evidence", but rather all the nonsense and mistakes that followed.

Just looking at that graphic and understanding that 3 women testified that they began their meal by 6 pm ought to end the discussion. The whole meal was still in her stomach when she died, and that sets the TOD pretty definitively.

 

[christianahannah]

Here is a link to a written part of what just aired on BBC3 re: Amanda's December 17, 2007 interrogation. I think Malkmus may have been the one to supply a link to the audio but I am not sure about that. Anyways, he writes this audio was on an Italian program (last highlighted paragraph).

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6655384&postcount=20484

 

[RandyN]

As anglo said, the extradition process is more political than legal. I doubt the US will want to upset a long time ally.

If you or Anglo are suggesting that the US will simply rubber stamp an extradition request by Italy for A Knox then you are both sadly mistaken.

First Italy is hardly a long time ally. Second Italy has an extremely bad record of human rights violations against defendants by its courts.

It is far from a political matter only. Knox will certainly have the opportunity to bring an appeal case against extradition. And she will certainly do this and when the case is laid bare in a US court then there is no way in hell Knox would ever be returned to Italy. Impossible!

Consider the following case (notice the full article my be limited to memebers)

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2164207,00.html

You can Google this sweetie hiding out in the Netherlands collecting 700 Euros/mth welfare as he fights extradition on the most unlikely of excuses...but next stop for him is ECOHR say his state provided lawyers...that's if he loses in Netherlands.

And this is a terrorist likely responsible for killing 39 people. And we just want to give him a fair trial before hanging him...errr just kidding... no death penalty for him. But he hasn't even been tried yet and the excuse against extradition is that the USA may have known that the Pakistanis may have beaten him.

To suggest that USA will simply turn over Knox to maintain a long time "ally" relationship with a questionable country (ITALY) nearly in collapse and who cant keep a government in place for more than 1 year is completely absurd! Did I mention their less than stellar record of violations with the ECOHR?

Forget double jeopardy. That will not be a part of the case. Rather the human rights violations of Italy of severe lack of duty to provide anything close to a fair trial added to the complete absence of any effort to provide a speedy trail will be way more than enough to block extradition to Italy.

Italy may not even be able to afford the stamp for a letter requesting Knox extradition. Who thinks Germany will lend them one more dime to buy one?

Get real. The USA could care less about Italy. They only make the news when someone else pulls a major boner like driving a modern cruse ship onto the rocks or jailing scientists for failure to predict earthquakes or freeing 60 year old pedophiles who are in love with 11 year old girls. I think the PM change after less than a year made page 6. They are foolish clowns doing foolish things that they are letting leak into the mainstream press. Do they think the world is not out looking for the next big laugh?

Go ahead Italians ...lock up Solecito. Knox WILL REMAIN free here in America. Lets see how that works out for you.

 

[Caper]

As anglo said, the extradition process is more political than legal. I doubt the US will want to upset a long time ally.

What? There is no way in hell she will ever get sent back to that country. Not in a million years.... more fantasies from Lionking.

 

[GWCarver]

In North Korea you get your own trial. On Italy, you can get convicted based on some other guys trial.

Just like in Italy, North Korea can hold a suspect for up to a year while making their case. The only difference is during that year, the suspect doesn't get any food.

 

[Poppy1016]

Before the December visit, the last photos we know of we're taken on November 3. Several teams of police continued to occupy the cottage through the 6th when the cottage was sealed. Then there was the mysterious access on or about the 14th.

I was just wondering if Stephony or the prosecution gave any reason regarding how the clasp moved across the room.

 

[Poppy1016]

The Attorney General represents the country with whom the US has the treaty and the courts adjudicate the case.

Btw, not AWOL you ingn....... oops I'd better watch myself or one of those bia-trolls will come by here and take a pot shot at me.

To expand a bit on the witness thing, it seems that since lying is considered such a heinous crime in Italy, people are believed unless one can prove they are lying. Mach made the point repeatedly that saying things about Steffy or Mignini, for example, made the speaker a criminal. So if one is in court as a witness and someone says they are lying that is a criminal charge. I know that perjury exists here and the UK but there seems to be some fundamental difference of how the same behavior is viewed here and there.

While I acknowledge my explanation is not elegant, I think that it is almost impossible to fully grasp the difference in thinking between the cultures. It's like a genetic difference.

ETA - Thanks LJ I believe this helps make my point:

Quote:



My jaw almost literally still drops every time I read or remember this sentence. It's such a disgustingly contra-judicial ruling (not to mention its abhorrent illogicality) that I'm still deeply amazed that Massei committed it to paper. And if he and his court were prepared to write this in the sentencing report, then just how much did they apply similar chasms of logic elsewhere in their reasoning?

Mach also said that defendants often lie in court , and are somewhat expected to do so. And it is not against the law.

 

[Draca]

Thank you. Here's a second draft.

View attachment 30316

I really like your graph. One correction please.

MK arrived home at 9:01. Time stamp says 8:51 on clock 10-12 minutes slow. So 9:01-9:04 pm.
https://www.facebook.com/1063444593...6344459390034/235387386485740/?type=3&theater

 

[Bill Williams]

Mach also said that defendants often lie in court , and are somewhat expected to do so. And it is not against the law.

Yet they can be prosecuted for calunnia. So Machiavelli punts another one.

 

[Poppy1016]

Could it potential be so bad that the Italian supreme court cannot endorse it?
Kind of hoping

Yes the fact that the Supreme court claimed they used osmotic reasoning over evidence should go over like a lead balloon when considering an extradition request.

 

[RandyN]

If the case for innocence becomes popular enough in the US, then Italy will find they are the ones who have upset a longtime ally.

No ifs!!!...a legal case WILL BE brought against extradition. No politics involved. The Italians will be shown to be turd herding medieval liars with nothing resembling a legal system or case at all.

This case is not even close. It is absurd. And yes Italy will have upset an important (to them) ally.

A defense team here will not cower in fear nor will they remain silent if Italy chooses to come here to present their "facts". And if they simply send the case files then good luck with that...lol. I wonder if Stefanoni will include the EDF's for that?

No politics involved...those calling for petitions to Kerry to come out now against extradition are wasting their time and are foolish. We have rule of law. And the law will be followed in an extradition hearing. The Italians have contradicted themselves and provided and used false evidence and witnesses and relied on bogus science...this is easily proved in a honest court. Pick any motivation report and that would be enough. Nothing is more absurd than Massei although the latest ISC motivation comes damn close.

Get your house in order Italy. You are making yourselves look foolish to the world. Bunga bunga aside, even we got past Presidential blow jobs. You can do it too. First shake up your prosecutors and police and clean up that mess. Oh wait you have no method or system in place for that. Never mind. Carry on you silly jokes you.

 

[Bill Williams]

I really like your graph. One correction please.

MK arrived home at 9:01. Time stamp says 8:51 on clock 10-12 minutes slow. So 9:01-9:04 pm.
https://www.facebook.com/1063444593...6344459390034/235387386485740/?type=3&theater

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/tBBCakw.jpg[/qimg]

Was not this once used to prove Amanda had gone to the cottage at that time?

It's the whole thing with this case. There's "all the other evidence", a phrase that guilters trot out when each individual item is debunked. Yet for some reason, looking at this osmotically means you still get to keep this in play against Knox (and Sollecito) even after debunking. And evcen after it is ALL debunked, there's still an osmotic case against them.

Sort of like staring at a bright light, then closing your eyes and still seeing it. Doesn't matter that it is no longer there.

 

[Poppy1016]

My understanding is serving American armed forces personnel or government officials such as CIA agents, are not part of any extradition treaty.

Whether Amanda is or isn’t extradited really will come down to whether there would be a groundswell of public opinion against extradition.

Well 2,000 signatures on the extradition petition to the White House, was not the groundswell of public opinion I had envisioned.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well 2,000 signatures on the extradition petition to the White House, was not the groundswell of public opinion I had envisioned.

I would say it is not quite the right time and the right social media has not been plugged into it. I tried contacting somebody with 100,000 friends on facebook in hopes that he might be willing to plug it.

If you know anybody who might be sympathetic with a large presence, recommend you try as well. Still have a week.

I plugged into one of those petition the president about atheists being persecuted in the military and thought it went over like a lead balloon. Suddenly, about a year later, it got noticed and got an e-mail on it. Yes, it was basically a form letter but even that says "We noticed."

 

[Poppy1016]

I would say it is not quite the right time and the right social media has not been plugged into it. I tried contacting somebody with 100,000 friends on facebook in hopes that he might be willing to plug it.

If you know anybody who might be sympathetic with a large presence, recommend you try as well. Still have a week.

I plugged into one of those petition the president about atheists being persecuted in the military and thought it went over like a lead balloon. Suddenly, about a year later, it got noticed and got an e-mail on it. Yes, it was basically a form letter but even that says "We noticed."

Someone mentioned the possibility of getting her university involved. Not quite sure how to do this.