General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Mycroft]

They got rid of the Turks alright, as soon as they had the chance to.

After 500 years is hardly "as soon as they had the chance", but don't let that interrupt your revisionist history lesson.

The objection to Jews buying land was that the Jews were quite open about the purpose, it was to create a new state for jews right where they lived.

Yes and no. Before the Balfour Declaration there were different ideas floated about what "Zionism" would produce. Herzl wrote about a non-state entity where all people of all religions and backgrounds would live together harmoniously.

But more importantly...so what? If someone were to create a "state for Mormons" (or whatever) right where you lived, how would you be harmed by that? What specifically do you think would happen that in your mind justifies starting a race war?

If Japanese, English, Eskimos had the same aim, the reaction would have been no different. Throughout history, in similar circumstances, it has often involved a violent reaction.

I think if you take a closer look at history, you see violent reactions where the rights of peoples are trampled on.

The Hawaiians, for example, didn't object when the United States created an "American State" "right where they lived" because they became Americans with with the same rights any other American has. It's not about self-determination just for it's own sake, self-determination is important to populations who are abused by their rulers.

 

[Mycroft]

As for informers, the use of informers by Israel is well documented. Sometimes people don't like Hamas, and decide they would like to be rid of them. Hardly surprising. Other times people are blackmailed.

I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say here. Did anyone claim Israel doesn't use informers? Does this in any way mitigate the horror of Hamas rule, or change how actions like this would keep the Palestinian population terrorized and less likely to voice disagreement with the Hamas party line? Do you think Hamas saying this guy was an informant makes it so? Do you think if we really was an informant that Israel becomes responsible for what happened to him?

 

[a_unique_person]

Well people like Galloway support them and give them a free pass.

It's one of the primary reasons why there is a conflict at all instead of a negotiated solution.

If people supported those wanting to negotiate rather than those who only want to kill, than there would be a real Palestinian state today.

I thought so. Galloway does not = International Respect in any sense. It has long been the case that the extremes on both sides can stop the urge for peace from the middle.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I thought so. Galloway does not = International Respect in any sense. It has long been the case that the extremes on both sides can stop the urge for peace from the middle.

Unless you want to call most of the Middle East "the extremes," than that definitely is International support.

Hamas finds greater support in a changed Middle East

 

[a_unique_person]

Unless you want to call most of the Middle East "the extremes," than that definitely is International support.

Hamas finds greater support in a changed Middle East

Once again, not "International" in the sense that I understand it, that is, if it is true, "regional".

 

[HoverBoarder]

Once again, not "International" in the sense that I understand it, that is, if it is true, "regional".

Internationally, they are some of the most important countries in regards to this issue since they are in the region where the conflict is occurring.

Plus, when you add in the South America (i.e. Venezuela), there is International support.


Mostly it comes down to giving those who choose the path of violence a free pass.

Palestinians who choose violence over working towards peace are given the most money and support (largely because dead Palestinian babies are great for Iranian PR).

 

[HoverBoarder]

The Real News reports from Gaza

'Journalists targeted in Israeli attack'

This report contains graphic scenes. Viewer discretion is advised.

I get the whole 'throw as much junk as you can and see what sticks' strategy, but you have yet to post a serious or honest video on the subject.

Why not focus more on quality rather than quantity?

 

[trustbutverify]

I didn't hear that Hamas was respected internationally. When did that happen?

It happened after their latest thrilling victory over Israel. Even though I obviously disagree with that characterization, the fact that Hamas has gained significant international recognition and respect as a result isn't even controversial.

As for informers, the use of informers by Israel is well documented. Sometimes people don't like Hamas, and decide they would like to be rid of them. Hardly surprising. Other times people are blackmailed.

How does this obvious fact have anything to do with my post? What does this have to do with Kholoud Badawi's assertion that her husband was innocent, and had a phony confession tortured out of him?

Once again, not "International" in the sense that I understand it, that is, if it is true, "regional".

I don't know in what sense you understand the word, but "regional" is a subset of "international".

 

[lionking]

It happened after their latest thrilling victory over Israel. Even though I obviously disagree with that characterization, the fact that Hamas has gained significant international recognition and respect as a result isn't even controversial.

I have to chime in. Hamas does not have significant international respect. You are making the claim, prove it.

 

[trustbutverify]

Near the end of November, Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal told CNN that Hamas accepts a two state settlement based on the 1967 borders, and is prepared to proceed in their struggle without the use of weapons or violence.

However, in yesterdays self-congratulatory chest beating festival, he promised to never recognize Israel, establish a Palestinian state consisting of the entire territory (including Israel) and indicated that kidnappings would be used to free all Palestinian prisoners... which, i get the feeling, would probably involve weapons and violence.

So Chief Mashaal tells the West what it wants to hear, while feeding his constituents the opposite. I wonder what the actual truth is?

 

[lionking]

I have to chime in. Hamas does not have significant international respect. You are making the claim, prove it.

Er, did you miss this? Where is Hamas' international respect?

 

[a_unique_person]

It happened after their latest thrilling victory over Israel. Even though I obviously disagree with that characterization, the fact that Hamas has gained significant international recognition and respect as a result isn't even controversial.
.

I would say most of the world doesn't respect Hamas, including myself.

 

[trustbutverify]

I would say most of the world doesn't respect Hamas, including myself.

I don't think Hamas is respected by most of the world. I believe they're more respected internationally now than before operation Pillar of defense, particularly in Egypt, Turkey , Lebanon etc... Being seen as victorious over pariah Israel, incorrectly in my opinion, has boosted its image on the world stage.

 

[a_unique_person]

I don't think Hamas is respected by most of the world. I believe they're more respected internationally now than before operation Pillar of defense, particularly in Egypt, Turkey , Lebanon etc... Being seen as victorious over pariah Israel, incorrectly in my opinion, has boosted its image on the world stage.

You keep moving the goal posts. I think Hamas was jealous that Abbas had a win at the UN. Abbas has a lot more respect internationally than Hamas, that has lost more respect, IMHO, than it gained.

 

[lionking]

I don't think Hamas is respected by most of the world. I believe they're more respected internationally now than before operation Pillar of defense, particularly in Egypt, Turkey , Lebanon etc... Being seen as victorious over pariah Israel, incorrectly in my opinion, has boosted its image on the world stage.

Rubbish. BTW, "etc" means "I have run out of names".

 

[a_unique_person]

Internationally, they are some of the most important countries in regards to this issue since they are in the region where the conflict is occurring.

Plus, when you add in the South America (i.e. Venezuela), there is International support.


Mostly it comes down to giving those who choose the path of violence a free pass.

Palestinians who choose violence over working towards peace are given the most money and support (largely because dead Palestinian babies are great for Iranian PR).

The Palestinians who weren't firing rockets were rewarded with an expansion of settlements, and international warnings, with ambassadors being called in for a long lecture.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The Palestinians who weren't firing rockets were rewarded with an expansion of settlements, and international warnings, with ambassadors being called in for a long lecture.

lays world's smallest violin:

Israel and HAMAS are at war. In wars, things get built, people get yelled at, and ambassadors are called in for lectures. Such is the nature of human conflict, I'm afraid.

 

[WildCat]

Near the end of November, Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal told CNN that Hamas accepts a two state settlement based on the 1967 borders, and is prepared to proceed in their struggle without the use of weapons or violence.

However, in yesterdays self-congratulatory chest beating festival, he promised to never recognize Israel, establish a Palestinian state consisting of the entire territory (including Israel) and indicated that kidnappings would be used to free all Palestinian prisoners... which, i get the feeling, would probably involve weapons and violence.

So Chief Mashaal tells the West what it wants to hear, while feeding his constituents the opposite. I wonder what the actual truth is?

Exactly, and I think we know which group they're playing for suckers.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

The Palestinians who weren't firing rockets were rewarded with an expansion of settlements, and international warnings, with ambassadors being called in for a long lecture.

You mean the ones who aren't getting rocket fire in return but are refusing to negotiate unless a precondition of all their demands is first met? You mean the Palestinians who instead of negotiating on the borders decided it would be better to strong arm Israel through the use of the UN?

What a shocking surprise!

 

[HoverBoarder]

I have to chime in. Hamas does not have significant international respect. You are making the claim, prove it.

I would say most of the world doesn't respect Hamas, including myself.

Most does not equal significant. As long as they maintain large support in the Middle East, especially among the players who participated in the last wars against Israel and would be the most likely to join in any new war, than that is significant.

Especially since these are the players that give Hamas money for arms and political backup when they attack Israel.

You may not support Hamas, but you are not likely to ever give them money for arms, or give any real concrete support during their attacks on Israeli cities, so that makes your support less significant than the main International players in the region.

I don't think Hamas is respected by most of the world. I believe they're more respected internationally now than before operation Pillar of defense, particularly in Egypt, Turkey , Lebanon etc... Being seen as victorious over pariah Israel, incorrectly in my opinion, has boosted its image on the world stage.

That is correct.

A point which is further corroborated by the high level visits with Hamas leadership and show of support during and after the latest conflict.

You keep moving the goal posts. I think Hamas was jealous that Abbas had a win at the UN. Abbas has a lot more respect internationally than Hamas, that has lost more respect, IMHO, than it gained.

Beyond the whole 'moving goalposts' aspect, which is incorrect since most does not equal significant, your second part is correct.

Hamas was jealous of Abbas getting attention,and they decided to sacrifice a few hundred people in Gaza on the sacred alter of front page news to get attention.

So far it looks like their sacrifice has paid off for Hamas (though probably not as much for the Gazan people).