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Cancer rare in ancient world evidence, thus it's man made?

Even lung cancer is exceedingly rare *before* 40/45 year old.

Yes, but I can aver without reservation that prior to 1500, even if you lived beyond that age, the smoking related cancer rate in the Eastern Hemisphere was zero. :D


Since the life expectancy until early 20th century was below 45, you would not expect any cancer.

Not quite. See Darat's post below for what's wrong with this meme. Most people didn't drop dead at 35. Most who lived that long would live for another to several decades more. What brought the average down so much was high infant and childhood mortality. In fact the Wikipedia entry you linked to says just that in this section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_variation_over_time

- eta I'd point out this section and the links contained in it as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_vs._life_span


Since I'm not the OPer, I have no idea why your factually incorrect response to me is a thread killer. :)

I did some research on lifespan that I posted here some years ago but can't find it again but a rough summary is that if you managed to live to the age of 21 (and weren't dirt poor!) you'd stand a very good chance of living into your 70s and 80s, it was childhood deaths that really brought down the average lifespan in past days. So looking at the average (which usually means the mean) lifespan isn't that useful if you want to argue that we don't see many cancers because people didn't live long enough in the past to develop cancers.

Obviously many, many more people do now live to old age when compared with past times now that childhood is not so hazardous (in developed countries) so I agree that describing cancer as a "disease of old age" is a good rule of thumb.

ETA: Found a link to show what I was meaning:L http://apps.business.ualberta.ca/rfield/lifeexpectancy.htm
 
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From the University of Manchester:

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/aboutus/news/display/?id=6243


A friend given to all manner of health woo has posted this today on Facebook.
It claims due to the scarcity of tumors in Egyptian mummies and ancient records of Greece, as well as fossil evidence, as well as the fact bone cancer is so prevalent in children in the modern world in the face of the claim that shorter life spans accounted for the scarcity in ancient times, that cancer must be from man made factors.

Jumping the gun, are they?

Aren't many cancers caused from viruses? I wonder what man made technology could promote viral infection, they're claiming possibly burning and inhalation of various smoke.

The sample of mummies, low, the sample of fossils, almost zero.

Sample error and conjecture.

I wonder what kind of autopsies the greeks and egyptians did, a *********** literature review?
 
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The sample of mummies, low, the sample of fossils, almost zero.

Sample error and conjecture.

I wonder what kind of autopsies the greeks and egyptians did, a *********** literature review?

Since the word "artery" stems from the belief that they were believed to carry air, due to being found empty at autopsies in ancient Greece, I'd doubt the accuracy of any "cause of death" statement made 3000 years ago....
 
There were far fewer people back then. This too would make cancer much more rare.
 
Well cancer in the ancient world was frequent enough to be mentioned in the writings of the Egyptian doctor Imhotep (App. 2625 BC), where he gives a vivid description of breast cancer. He also stated that there was no treatment.
 
Once again it's an oversimplification of a complex subject.

1. Obviously some of the causes of cancer are man made. A good example would be smoking, one of the leading causes of lung cancer.

2. Examining mummies does not give you a very good cross section of the people living at that time. For example socio-economic status and health do tend to coincide.

3. Cancer obviously existed in the past. The only debate is over what the ratio was. That is nearly impossible to determine as far as I know.

There are some merits to saying that modern lifestyles contribute to some diseases. However, with a life expectancy rate nearly triple that of the middle ages, it's not just black and white. It also varied wildly by country and ethnicity and still does.
 
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Even lung cancer is exceedingly rare *before* 40/45 year old.


Example UK :

http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/incidence/

[qimg]http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/prod_consump/groups/cr_common/@nre/@sta/documents/image/cases_crude_lung1_png.png[/qimg]

Most of the cancer as far as I know follow that curve.

Since the life expectancy until early 20th century was below 45, you would not expect any cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

As many said above, both of those mixed together shows we should find cancer rarely in any old corpse we find. They did not have time to get cancer because they died young. So to all those accusing the modern life of "giving us cancer", well sure, have a short life, and I'll take the cancer risky long life.


/thread.

Wow, you were WAY ahead of me. You even have a pretty graph and everything. :) I thought as much. If you don't live that long, the likelihood of dying of cancer decreases dramatically. :)
 
I think there's three issues at work here:

1) Life expectancy. Even if you factor in the fact that infant/childhood mortality accounted for the lion's share of the decrease in lifespan, the ancient world still had all sorts of ways to die before cancer killed you. Mercury poisoning isn't entirely through cancer, and if you die of influenza your cancer may never get big enough to notice (not to mention the various plagues).

2) Sample bias. We're talking MUMMIES here. Given the process, that means we're talking about the rich and famous--hardly a legitimate sample group, since there's nothing resembling a cross-section of society. Then you have the issues of EGYPTIAN mummies, which were typically the ruling class, which had this nasty habbit of inbreeding to preserve the purity of the bloodline. You cannot extrapolate to the entire population when your sample is so distant from the population. In other words, if you only sample the rich you can only discuss the rich.

3) Better detection. Any analysis of disease through time must factor in improved detection. They may not have known what cancer WAS in some societies, let alone be able to detect it prior to serious problems.

RobDegraves said:
Once again it's an oversimplification of a complex subject.
True. We've removed some carcinogens, and added others.
 
As has been answered already in the thread, the article tries to refute the notion of life expectancy being an explanation, albeit with barely a token nod. So I'd factor that into a response to the article, as some people already have in this thread.
 
A prediction from the hypothesis that cancer is a man made disease only would be, that cancer would not occur in pre human organisms. The documentation of metastatic cancer in a "Theropod dinosaur" falsifies this hypothesis. The original article that is referred to in the link is not available for free, but here is a similar review from 2005: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijc.20610/pdf
 
I did some research on lifespan that I posted here some years ago but can't find it again but a rough summary is that if you managed to live to the age of 21 (and weren't dirt poor!) you'd stand a very good chance of living into your 70s and 80s, it was childhood deaths that really brought down the average lifespan in past days. So looking at the average (which usually means the mean) lifespan isn't that useful if you want to argue that we don't see many cancers because people didn't live long enough in the past to develop cancers.

Obviously many, many more people do now live to old age when compared with past times now that childhood is not so hazardous (in developed countries) so I agree that describing cancer as a "disease of old age" is a good rule of thumb.

ETA: Found a link to show what I was meaning:L http://apps.business.ualberta.ca/rfield/lifeexpectancy.htm

That's a common myth, actually, but for Ancient Egypt it's clearly and provably a myth. The Egyptians were in the habit of writing down stuff. Including stuff like, you know, when someone was born and when they died. They wrote that stuff when burying someone. And we have a butt-load of such data points from them.

In fact so many that we can plot a curve. X axis being how old that guy was, and Y axis how many dead people we've got of that age.

And it basically looks like a two-hump camel. There's a big mortality spike in the first 3 years of life, and after that it looks pretty much like your average Gauss curve.

And the peak of that one, in the Old Kingdom times is around 35 years old for men. That's it. That was the life expectancy you actually had if you got past the infant mortality fluke. Chief cause of death were actually tooth abscesses, as they had sand everywhere, including in bread, and it literally filed teeth down to the nerve over time. And here's the scarier part: for women, who had that AND childbirth to deal with, that peak of the death curve is around 25 years old.

By New Kingdom times, the life expectancy if you survived infancy had increased by about 10 years for both genders, so now it was mid-40's for the males and mid-30's for the women.

Of course, as usual this varied a bit with social stratum too. For the rich they lived longer, the poor shorter. Upper class women especially had much better chances as they tended to get married off later, which greatly reduced the chance to meet Osiris in the first childbirth. (The poorer were married off at the age of 12.)

But even the rich still got their teeth eventually filed down by sand. Some of the teeth on those mummies look like they were cut in half with a saw. So even there life spans anywhere near modern ones were rare outliers, not the norm.

I suppose what sometimes confuses people is the fact that for Egyptians the number 110 was of special importance because of numerology, and defined as the perfect life-span of a human. So some people expect that they must have at some people getting close to that. But really it was just based on numerology. There are no actual data points that come even close to that. They also had the confusing habit to occasionally say about someone or another that he lived 110 years, but that was just an euphemism for "he lived a perfect life" (110 being perfect) or in other words "he was a really nice fellow and liked by everyone". But if you look at those birth and death years on his plaque, it turns out they were burying him at 35 years old. So, as I always, say, he must have gotten bored to death in that tomb for 75 years if he actually lived to 110 ;)
 
It may be more of a Natural selection issue.

Those resistant to cancer now, do not have a natural selection advantage over those prone to cancer, due to medical breakthroughs.

In the past, those resistant to cancer would have had a natural selection advantage over those prone to cancer.
 
there's a heck of a lot more cancer now than in the past due to chemicals like PCB's -- fact!

Wood smoke is loaded with mutagens. I would hazard a guess that our ancestors inhaled a heck of a lot more wood smoke than we do.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if modern changes in things like diet, lifestyle, pollutants and modern drug use have in some way increased cancer rates.

I'd be curious as to how accurate their testing for cancer on thousand year old mummies is, however.

But come'on guys, we all know deep down that cancer is gods kind way of solving the worlds population problem.
 
It may be more of a Natural selection issue.

Those resistant to cancer now, do not have a natural selection advantage over those prone to cancer, due to medical breakthroughs.

In the past, those resistant to cancer would have had a natural selection advantage over those prone to cancer.


But most people who get cancer get it at an age beyond the age at which people breed. In evolutionary terms, anything that happens beyond the age of about 40 is largely irrelevant.

And even if this does have any effect, I very much doubt that there has been time for the effect to become apparent - it is only in the last few decades that cancer survival rates have been increased.
 
That's a common myth, actually, but for Ancient Egypt it's clearly and provably a myth.

...snip...

Sorry if my point wasn't clear - I was not limiting myself to a point about ancient Egyptians but rather the wider point that was being discussed regarding everyone was dead by the time they were what we would now call middle age, and indeed has been called middle age for a long time. For more recent times that we have good strong evidence for it is indeed a myth that we were all dead by middle age.
 
But most people who get cancer get it at an age beyond the age at which people breed. In evolutionary terms, anything that happens beyond the age of about 40 is largely irrelevant. ...snip...

Am going to disagree with you regarding that, for instance if having grandparents who can look after young children increases the likelihood of the grandchildren surviving to old age then it could have an effect on evolution as the children who have genes that mean they will on the whole live longer to provide this increase in the survivability would be selected for, just a bit more indirectly.
 
Wood smoke is loaded with mutagens. I would hazard a guess that our ancestors inhaled a heck of a lot more wood smoke than we do.

It's loaded with mutagens, but it's so generally nasty that it tends to shorten life through respiratory diseases other than lung cancer. This is one of the big reasons that there are so many attempts to develop "appropriate technology" stoves for areas where people rely on open burning of wood or dung for cooking. The open fires are a major health detriment, particularly to women.
 
Darat said:
Am going to disagree with you regarding that, for instance if having grandparents who can look after young children increases the likelihood of the grandchildren surviving to old age then it could have an effect on evolution as the children who have genes that mean they will on the whole live longer to provide this increase in the survivability would be selected for, just a bit more indirectly.
True, kin selection can have a big impact, particularly in social species such as our own. However, that impact would be vastly overshadowed by the age at which the species generally had offspring, I would think.
 

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