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Critic’s “Top 15” claims by psychic detective Noreen Renier

Sherlock said:
Successful critics of using paranormal psychics that found missing persons? A single case? How naive!

Two of the largest organizations devoted for owners of search and rescue dogs have publicly criticized the use of psychics in missing person cases.

And their membership of more than 4500 registered owners offer a success rate through the use of trained dogs far superior with less cost per case. Much of their findings are also admissible in court and their EVIDENCE has far fewer and limited legal liabilities with virtually no overturned convictions. Plus these critics add a documented history of solving crimes, finding missing persons (both dead and alive), and obtaining actual court convictions --- about 572,000 to 1 over missing person psychic detectives. And that "1" is simply a numeric value since its as close to zero as possible!

In addition to search and rescue dogs, compared with the top ten psychic detectives over the past 30 years state police dogs hold an approximate 85,000 to 0 chance of finding a missing person alive over the psychics sanctioned by state police and a 640,000 to 0 chance of finding a missing person dead or alive more than a year before psychics hired and sanctioned by state police agencies --- even on cases up to 30 years old!

I'll put either of these groups of registered and certified paranormal critics who are critical of psychic detectives against any paranormal claimant. And so do the nation's courts.
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If the dogs aren't skeptical, it doesn't count.
 
Rodney said:
Please humor me by supplying just one case similar to the Williston one, where a skeptic, rather than a psychic, provided the police information useful enough that they gave the skeptic credit for helping solve the case.
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We've had this conversation before. For example, in this thread (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91501) starting at post 289, numerous examples given which fulfilled your criteria were deemed unacceptable by you.

But I think Sherlock's post gets to what I said earlier...the use of 'non-psychics' to solve cases is so unremarkable that you don't even notice it.

Linda
 
fls said:
We've had this conversation before. For example, in this thread (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91501) starting at post 289, numerous examples given which fulfilled your criteria were deemed unacceptable by you.

But I think Sherlock's post gets to what I said earlier...the use of 'non-psychics' to solve cases is so unremarkable that you don't even notice it.

Linda
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Yes, but as a particularly astute poster observed on the thread that you referenced:

"None of the above stories have any relevance to what I'm talking about. Of course, non-psychic tipsters are besieging the police day and night, and in some cases have worthwhile information. But what I'm asking is whether a non-psychic has done what you seem to think that you might be able to do; i.e., examined the same evidence the police have and pointed them in a new, accurate direction. For example, in the case of the missing Canadian woman, if a non-psychic had examined the evidence and concluded that the police were looking in the wrong place for her body and pointed them to the correct location, as Norm Pratt did, I would be impressed. However, I don't know of any cases like that. Do you?"
 
Rodney said:
Yes, but as a particularly astute poster observed on the thread that you referenced:

"None of the above stories have any relevance to what I'm talking about. Of course, non-psychic tipsters are besieging the police day and night, and in some cases have worthwhile information. But what I'm asking is whether a non-psychic has done what you seem to think that you might be able to do; i.e., examined the same evidence the police have and pointed them in a new, accurate direction. For example, in the case of the missing Canadian woman, if a non-psychic had examined the evidence and concluded that the police were looking in the wrong place for her body and pointed them to the correct location, as Norm Pratt did, I would be impressed. However, I don't know of any cases like that. Do you?"
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Until the existence of psychic powers is demonstrated, it is reasonable to say that every crime ever solved was solved using non-psychic means. That is true and will remain true in spite of the obvious, and dishonest, effort on the part of those who believe in magic to shift the burden of proof.
 
Rodney said:
Yes, but as a particularly astute poster observed on the thread that you referenced:

"None of the above stories have any relevance to what I'm talking about. Of course, non-psychic tipsters are besieging the police day and night, and in some cases have worthwhile information. But what I'm asking is whether a non-psychic has done what you seem to think that you might be able to do; i.e., examined the same evidence the police have and pointed them in a new, accurate direction. For example, in the case of the missing Canadian woman, if a non-psychic had examined the evidence and concluded that the police were looking in the wrong place for her body and pointed them to the correct location, as Norm Pratt did, I would be impressed. However, I don't know of any cases like that. Do you?"
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Again, we already had this conversation. The problem isn't in finding examples of how non-psychic people help the police. It's that the examples are so routine you are not capable of recognizing them. You seem to expect the kind of news story like the one presented for Renier, but without the references to mumbo-jumbo. But it's not a news story without the mumbo-jumbo. All you will see, when non-psychics help the police, are news stories about people being found on the basis of a tip, or as the result of private investigation (professional or amateur) or dedicated effort. And without the mumbo-jumbo, you won't get the silly confirmation and attribution bias which turned Renier's highly inaccurate reading into something which Slaughter characterized as "amazing".

The most amazing thing about this case is just how awful the reading can be and you and others will still characterize it as so unprecedented as to be proof of psychic abilities. It really highlights the vacuity of your (pl.) opinions.

Linda
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
That doesn't make it right. Especially as, as I've pointed out already, "weigh bridge" isn't even an American term. I'd be surprised if Renier has even ever heard the term. You belatedly latching on to the fact that a weigh bridge is called a weigh bridge in other countries and claiming that that makes it a hit doesn't make the clue better.
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I've never in my life heard the term "weigh bridge" until I came across this thread, if the "psychic" is American it's not a term she would use.
 
fls said:
The most amazing thing about this case is just how awful the reading can be
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I'm still trying to get you to explain how it was that, following the "awful" reading, the police located Norman Lewis's truck and remains.

fls said:
and you and others will still characterize it as so unprecedented as to be proof of psychic abilities.
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I haven't gone that far (In Post # 140, I estimated the probability of Renier having paranormal knowledge of the facts in this case as 50%), and I don't know that Chief Slaughter has either. However, both of us recognize that the police would not have located Lewis's truck and remains without Noreen Renier's assistance.
 
Rodney said:
I'm still trying to get you to explain how it was that, following the "awful" reading, the police located Norman Lewis's truck and remains.
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Because they looked for Lewis again in some places they had not been able to search before. And because they, quite fortunately, did not search where Renier suggested they search.

I haven't gone that far (In Post # 140, I estimated the probability of Renier having paranormal knowledge of the facts in this case as 50%), and I don't know that Chief Slaughter has either
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He called it amazing in the video of the News Report. And since it has never been established that there is such a thing as psychic ability, to suddenly give it a probability of 50% would take an astonishingly unprecedented piece of evidence.

However, both of us recognize that the police would not have located Lewis's truck and remains without Noreen Renier's assistance.
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Huh? They clearly had to have found Lewis without her help because if they used what she said they would have searched in the wrong places. The only 'help' she could have provided was to stimulate the idea of another search. And we don't even know if that is the case.

Linda
 
Noreen Renier has apparently moved to Wilmington, North Carolina from her old stomping grounds near Charlottesville, Virginia. After the March 21, 2011 decision by her federal bankruptcy judge in Charlottesville who stated she misled his court and was not a credible witness perhaps this is no surprise.

Wilmington (population just over 100,000) is about 50 miles north of Myrtle Beach near the coast and Renier has made many lectures in this psychic "friendly" area. The Wilmington Police department has worked alongside several psychic detectives over the past 3 decades including "psychic" Nancy Myer who lives in Pennsylvania.
 
Rodney said:
"Quite fortunately"? So, they searched the correct pit just by chance?
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I interpreted it to mean that they were lucky that they chose NOT to follow the "psychics" advice.

Otherwise, they would have been in the wrong place.
 
Rodney said:
"Quite fortunately"? So, they searched the correct pit just by chance?
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Maybe they searched the correct pit because there were places there where it would be easy to drive a vehicle over the edge. Maybe they searched it because parts of it were deep enough to completely submerge a pickup truck, and reasonably intelligent people would consider looking there. Maybe they did spend an hour or two investigating the pit Renier described, the wrong pit, and upon finding no signs that a vehicle had gone over the edge, realized they had been misled. There are lots of possibilities, but it seems very unlikely they searched the correct pit just by chance. The right people to ask would be the actual cops who were involved.

But of course, if we are to consider the possibility that psychic powers were involved, the existence of psychic powers would have to be demonstrated. And so far the only thing supporting anyone's conjecture that a psychic detective helped lead police to the right location are arguments from incredulity and ignorance.
 
beren said:
I interpreted it to mean that they were lucky that they chose NOT to follow the "psychics" advice.

Otherwise, they would have been in the wrong place.
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As they would have been had they searched anywhere but the Whitehust pit. So why did they search there -- and only there -- following Renier's reading and then walking around about 30 candidate quarries? Just blind luck?
 
GeeMack said:
There are lots of possibilities, but it seems very unlikely they searched the correct pit just by chance.
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Good heavens, we agree on something. ;)

GeeMack said:
The right people to ask would be the actual cops who were involved.
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That would be Detective Hewitt, who supported Renier before he died; and Chief Slaughter, who still supports her.
 
Rodney said:
Good heavens, we agree on something. ;)


That would be Detective Hewitt, who supported Renier before he died; and Chief Slaughter, who still supports her.
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Of course we already mentioned the possibility that an incompetent cop might be more inclined to credit a fortune teller than to admit he had done a lousy job of both police work and consulting with a bogus psychic.

Since psychic abilities have never been demonstrated to actually exist, we can only speculate on why Slaughter might lie about Renier's part in the investigation. Of course it could be that he's stupid enough to actually believe in magical powers even in the face of a complete lack of evidence. That's called delusional thinking, by the way.
 
Rodney said:
As they would have been had they searched anywhere but the Whitehust pit. So why did they search there -- and only there -- following Renier's reading and then walking around about 30 candidate quarries? Just blind luck?
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The real question is why did they search there and only there after WWII?
 
Answer this: If the "psychic's" clues were so helpful, why did it take several months after the reading to actually find the body? As was quoted earlier:
Hewitt returned to Williston. Over the next couple of months, he sorted through the clues, driving the dirt roads around Williston, looking for the landmarks Renier had provided.

"'I will admit,' said Slaughter, 'that after a couple of months, I was about ready to call it quits. . ."
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So the months long search based on the reading was totally ineffective. Sounds to me like the handyman's mention of driving into a pit had more to do with actually "zeroing in" on the pit the victim was found in. Regardless of what the investigators involved say now, it seems pretty obvious that this case was solved by a mixture of delayed witness testimony and blind luck.
 
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