Who squirms at the word bright?

[BillyJoe]

Why don't you email the moderators or something. Likely as not they will tell you to go back to Japan.

 

[Kerberos]

So if I was on Mars I'd be a Martian?

Considering that there have been no manned flights to Mars I think that would be s fair assumption.

No one uses it in that context any more.

few people use it in that context; no one and few aren't synonyms.

You're going to use a sword against a lightsaber?

 

[thaiboxerken]

I don't think it's a big deal at all. But, I don't think it'll catch on because it's nto a big deal.

 

[Tanja]

An Englishman who's half a century out of date and belongs in an Enid Blyton novel. "Queer" hasn't meant "eccentric" for at least 50 years. (In one of her junior detective novels, Enid Blyton had a chapter entitled, "A Very Queer Boy". I've no idea whether it's been retitled, but the book itself is surely still in print.)
Similarly, no one ever says "chap" any more. "Bloke" or similar, yes, but not chap. "Queer chap" belongs to the same era as calling planes "kites" and men calling each other "good eggs". These days, "queer" is a homophobic term for "gay". It has no other meaning.

I am amazed that you are so confident that you are the greatest authority on English language.

English is my second language and I learned quite a lot of it through pre-1940's English books. So I make a conscious effort to learn and remember which words and phrases are obsolete.

Well, I heard quite a few people using the word "chap" here in London. Nothing out of ordinary about it. I admit I heard it used in a slightly humorous or deliberately old-fashioned way ("come on chaps, let's go"), but also in ordinary uses ("he's a really nice chap").
And I have heard people use the word queer meaning "strange". Admittedly, I never heard anyone use the word "gay" to mean "lively". How about "fag"? Should people stop using it as a term for cigarette because in another part of the world it is an offensive word for homosexual? So, yes, words change meaning over time. And yes, words mean different things in different English-speaking countries.

But I am writing this more out of principle. How can you proclaim to know for sure a word is never used? Don't you think you are a bit too confident there?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Why don't you email the moderators or something. Likely as not they will tell you to go back to Japan.

I can't "go back", as I'm already here. They could, however, tell me to stay here...

 

[Kimpatsu]

Considering that there have been no manned flights to Mars I think that would be s fair assumption.

Actually, I'm an immigrant from Saturn...

few people use it in that context; no one and few aren't synonyms.

The few people who do use it are anachronistic. If you want to sound like a 19th century twot, I can't help that, but don't fool yourself into thinking you sound anything other than out of tune with the times.

You're going to use a sword against a lightsaber?

Given that lightsabres are fictional, I have a jolly good chance of winning...

 

[Kimpatsu]

I am amazed that you are so confident that you are the greatest authority on English language.

Not the greatest, just the best on these boards.

English is my second language and I learned quite a lot of it through pre-1940's English books. So I make a conscious effort to learn and remember which words and phrases are obsolete.

Jolly good show!

Well, I heard quite a few people using the word "chap" here in London. Nothing out of ordinary about it. I admit I heard it used in a slightly humorous or deliberately old-fashioned way ("come on chaps, let's go"), but also in ordinary uses ("he's a really nice chap").

There you are, you've admitted it yourself. The only time "chap" is used is in a deliberate attempt to sound anachronistic for humourous purposes. The word is no longer part of the everyday lexicon, to the very extent that it is, by your own admission, only employed for wry self-deprecation. So what more do you want?

And I have heard people use the word queer meaning "strange". Admittedly, I never heard anyone use the word "gay" to mean "lively". How about "fag"? Should people stop using it as a term for cigarette because in another part of the world it is an offensive word for homosexual? So, yes, words change meaning over time. And yes, words mean different things in different English-speaking countries.

Ah, but only British English is correct! Just ask Prince Charles...
Actually, a "fag" was a term used to mean a schoolboy who waited on and served prefects in English public schools. It may still mean such at Eton, but then Eton is stuck in a time warp.
As a curiosity, how old were the people who used "queer" to mean "strange", and how many of them were there?

But I am writing this more out of principle. How can you proclaim to know for sure a word is never used? Don't you think you are a bit too confident there?

No, I don't think I'm overconfident at all. It is my job, after all. To be a first-class trnaslator, you must first know your mother tongue backwards and inside-out. And upside down and back to front and...

 

[Tanja]

There you are, you've admitted it yourself. The only time "chap" is used is in a deliberate attempt to sound anachronistic for humourous purposes. The word is no longer part of the everyday lexicon, to the very extent that it is, by your own admission, only employed for wry self-deprecation. So what more do you want?

(emphasis mine)

Well, Kimpatsu, that is actually NOT what I said. I said I heard it used BOTH for deliberately humorous purposes AND in normal context. How it makes you conclude I "admitted it was only used for wry self-deprecation", I do not understand.

 

[Reginald]

There you are, you've admitted it yourself. The only time "chap" is used is in a deliberate attempt to sound anachronistic for humourous purposes. The word is no longer part of the everyday lexicon, to the very extent that it is, by your own admission, only employed for wry self-deprecation. So what more do you want?

You really should read what Tanja said ....

but also in ordinary uses ("he's a really nice chap").

But in your haste to be right you seem to have overlooked that part. You may also like to remember your original comment on the word "chap"....

Similarly, no one ever says "chap" any more.

Which has been shown to be in error.

Ah, but only British English is correct! Just ask Prince Charles...
Actually, a "fag" was a term used to mean a schoolboy who waited on and served prefects in English public schools. It may still mean such at Eton, but then Eton is stuck in a time warp.
As a curiosity, how old were the people who used "queer" to mean "strange", and how many of them were there?

You would be more correct to say that "fag" is also .... You seem to be stuck on single meanings for words. (oh by the way the more common usage is "out of curiosity", just so you can keep your laser sharp skills up to date)

No, I don't think I'm overconfident at all. It is my job, after all. To be a first-class trnaslator, you must first know your mother tongue backwards and inside-out. And upside down and back to front and...

Cool then you will soon be aware of how the term "gay" is being hijacked by British youngsters, to them it means "Naff", so the language moves on. Keep up!

 

[Kimpatsu]

(emphasis mine)
Well, Kimpatsu, that is actually NOT what I said. I said I heard it used BOTH for deliberately humorous purposes AND in normal context. How it makes you conclude I "admitted it was only used for wry self-deprecation", I do not understand.

Can you give me an example of it being used in "normal conversation"?
Think about this: "chap" is not used in popular culture on TV, such as Eastenders or Coronation Street, and those shows, more than any other, are tapped into the British zeitgeist. Nor is the word ever heard on Big Brother, or any other of those reality TV shows. So who exactly today still uses the word except in self-deprecation?

 

[Kimpatsu]

You really should read what Tanja said ....

I have. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

But in your haste to be right you seem to have overlooked that part. You may also like to remember your original comment on the word "chap"....

As in cowboy chaps, or chapped lips?

Which has been shown to be in error.

Wrong. But then, what can you expect of someone so anachronistic they're named "Reginald"?!

You would be more correct to say that "fag" is also .... You seem to be stuck on single meanings for words. (oh by the way the more common usage is "out of curiosity", just so you can keep your laser sharp skills up to date)

No, "as a curiosity" is different from "out of curoisity". As to the eradication of homonyms, yes, that's precisely the goal. Together with the elimination of split infinitives, dangling prepositions, and American spelling...

Cool then you will soon be aware of how the term "gay" is being hijacked by British youngsters, to them it means "Naff", so the language moves on. Keep up!

If "gay" is to be redefined to mean "naff", then what will gay people henceforth be called?

 

[Reginald]

Wrong. But then, what can you expect of someone so anachronistic they're named "Reginald"?!

You seriously think that a forum name is basis for this type of argument?

You just keep moving the goal posts. I'm sure that is evident to others.

Have fun.

 

[tamiO]

Has anyone seen the discussion on Brights? I think I may have made a left turn when I should have made a right. Or something.

 

[Kimpatsu]

You seriously think that a forum name is basis for this type of argument?

Why not? It makes more sense than some of the arguments you've advanced. And your avatar is just... stunning.

You just keep moving the goal posts. I'm sure that is evident to others.

Not true. Don't confuse expansion of the argument and the bringing in of more examples with changing tack completely.

Have fun.

Always. And you?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Has anyone seen the discussion on Brights? I think I may have made a left turn when I should have made a right. Or something.

Then turn the car around, go back to the T-junction, and take the right turning this time.
Alternatively, you could just let the old man drive, love.

 

[rebecca]

Wow TamiO, I'm with you, this thread took an odd turn.

Count me in as another person with dozens of gay friends who do not consider the term "queer" offensive in the least. Like just about anything, if said with the right amount of vitriol, it can be insulting. You should hear the way some of my relatives spit out the word "gay."

And for another example of the use of the word "queer" in the media, Boston's largest alternative weekly names a section of their paper "Queer."

 

[Kimpatsu]

Wow TamiO, I'm with you, this thread took an odd turn.
Count me in as another person with dozens of gay friends who do not consider the term "queer" offensive in the least. Like just about anything, if said with the right amount of vitriol, it can be insulting. You should hear the way some of my relatives spit out the word "gay."
And for another example of the use of the word "queer" in the media, Boston's largest alternative weekly names a section of their paper "Queer."

Self-deprecation using an insult can be self-empowering; witness the number of black people who call each other the N-word. So, that an alternative publication should be called "queer" doesn't mean the word is generally acceptable. As to "gay" being spat out vitriolically, anything can be said with sufficient venom and thus made into an insult; the issue here is whether the word is generally in the insult category, not whether words like "gay" can be misapplied to create a new fashion of insult. As the majority of gays don't like to be called "queer", I think that the issue has been settled.

 

[rebecca]

Self-deprecation using an insult can be self-empowering; witness the number of black people who call each other the N-word. So, that an alternative publication should be called "queer" doesn't mean the word is generally acceptable.

That was only an example of the media using the word in a way that was not negative, and certainly not the only clue that the word is acceptable.

As to "gay" being spat out vitriolically, anything can be said with sufficient venom and thus made into an insult; the issue here is whether the word is generally in the insult category, not whether words like "gay" can be misapplied to create a new fashion of insult.

Yes, that is precisely what I stated, only I believe I used the word "vitriol." You may have misread my post, but I was quite clear about it.

As the majority of gays don't like to be called "queer", I think that the issue has been settled.

You should take a survey and write a report, as I can only imagine you're basing your conclusion on the majority of gays you know. The majority of gays that I know (okay, all the gays I know) do not take offense at the word in the least. That leaves the issue not at all settled.

 

[Kimpatsu]

That was only an example of the media using the word in a way that was not negative, and certainly not the only clue that the word is acceptable.

As I said, this is self-deprecation. There's a difference between a black man calling himself a "n!gger" and a white man calling him one.

Yes, that is precisely what I stated, only I believe I used the word "vitriol." You may have misread my post, but I was quite clear about it.

Now I don't get you. On the one hand, you're admitting that "queer" is an insult, and on the other, you're saying that it isn't. The difference between "queer" and"gay" is that "queer" is intended as an insult, so every use of it is insulting (except in cases on self-empowerment), whereas "gay" is only insulting if you believe homosexuality per se is unacceptable.

You should take a survey and write a report, as I can only imagine you're basing your conclusion on the majority of gays you know. The majority of gays that I know (okay, all the gays I know) do not take offense at the word in the least. That leaves the issue not at all settled.

Yes, all gays I know object to being called "queer". Even movies like the (admittedly excrable) "Warlock" made the explicit distinction between "queer" and "gay" .

 

[LucyR]

Hmm...I prefer to be clinical, so I just say 'homosexual'.