Mother of Nine Sues Massachusetts Hospital After Unauthorized Sterilization

[Morrigan]

Not good enough.
[...]
And even then this poor woman will not have been made whole.

It is impossible to overreact to this egregious incident, far worse than the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking, the Pol Pot regime and the Rwandan massacres combined.

Haha, well put.

 

[NYCEMT86]

Because it is all about the paperwork. If someone accused you of abandonment and you couldn't produce a signed RMA on the back of a PCR I would hold you liable and guilty as well.

So unless they can find the paperwork they have a massive screw up on their hands. Remember the adage, if it isn't documented it didn't happen.

I do not disagree with your statement above at all, but I think there is more to this story than what was published in the newspaper. We can assume based on the what has been published, the hospital is in the wrong and should pay, but the fact that this just at the beginning of the lawsuit, no one side will reveal all evidence to a reporter that is to be presented in front of a judge and possibly a jury before hand.

Lawyers time after time have always claimed that they are in the right and the other side is just wrong, whether they are the Prosecution or the Defense, we see this in the news constantly. I just think people should hold out on their judgment until the evidence has been released.

 

[Pinkymcfatfat]

In the off chance this is totally the hospitals fault, I think this would be a fair amount to give this grief stricken woman...

The cost of welfare for the child for 18 years, plus the cost of food stamps for 18 years. I can't figure out the exact amounts because those rates go by how many children you currently have in the system. Her oldest is 21, so that one has 'maxed out' and at least one more is probably over the age of 18.

I don't think it would be a sum to sneeze at, but certainly not a gazillion dollars.

 

[Dorian Gray]

I'm actually pro-sterilization. I think that society should have a right to control who can have kids.
But it's certainly not the delivering surgeon's decision.

I think you should put your money where your genitals are and get yourself sterilized. If you won't do this for what you consider "good reasons", realize that everyone has good reasons not to be sterilized, and it's impractical and unethical to subject every couple/woman to majority vote.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Hmmm. So, other than accidental sterilization, what other medical blunders should shut down an entire hospital? Or do you claim that accidental sterilization is the worst?

Surgically removing the straw from your arguments would be an example of a reasonable mistake.

If today is my birthday, everyone else wishes me a happy birthday, but you accuse me of discriminating against birthdays that happen the other 364 days. If we say that this sterilization should result in some payment and punishment, everyone else says yes it should or no it shouldn't, but you accuse us of discriminating against people of all other races, creeds, beliefs, socioeconomic statuses, etc.

Stop doing that. Listen to the English words that are being typed, not the voices in your head telling you to kill, kill, kill the thread!

 

[Dorian Gray]

Pour encourager les autres. I wish to send a message to the entire health care profession that some levels of mistakes are not acceptable.

That's the entire purpose of punitive damages in the first place.

In particular, the mistake I wish to punish is the mistake of not double-checking your colleagues' work.

Now YOU'RE swinging all the way the other crazy direction. The doctor who did the sterilization, whether intentional or not, should be punished, along with anyone who helped him or her, including whoever had the responsibility of securing the woman's permission for the procedure and failed. But why should the rest of the people be punished?

That's like shutting down every GM plant if there's a recall on a seat belt latch. That's like disbanding a town if a bridge in that town collapses. That's like shutting down JREF because 2-3 people violated the rules of the forum.

Ridiculous. Let's keep this conversation in the tall part of the bell curve, shall we?

 

[Dorian Gray]

I love how most people on this forum have already found the doctors and hospital liable without even seeing any decisive evidence. Is this the new era of skepticism?

As I have stated before, at this point, I am completely neutral on this until more information is released.

So let me throw this hypothetical question out there;

What if this woman's lawsuit is nothing more than a fringe attempt to cash in. What should her consequences be?

Maybe we should hold her to the same harsh ideals of punishment that people like Dr. Kitten have towards the Hospital and Doctors.

Why not blacklist her from being able to receive any form medical care?
Why not force her to pay for all legal fees?
Why not have her publicly apologize to the staff directly involved and then to every single employee to the hospital?

You're making an argument that Christians often make. See, there is no signed consent form that permits the doctor/hospital to sterilize the woman. Without that form, the doctor and the hospital are completely liable. The burden of proof is on them. Produce the form, and this goes away. That they haven't produced it indicates that there isn't one to produce.

You seem to be implying that boring old argument "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."

In fact, the woman has sued CVS pharmacy for selling expired spermacide, and won. Mixed blessing, though. She "won" $20,000, of which she took home $1,000, according to the article. If that qualifies her as a money-grubber, then who isn't?

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

My money's on it having happened due to misunderstanding.

Mine too. Exactly that.

Not good enough.

The hospital should be fined 26 quadrillion dollars, every doctor in it should be prohibited from ever practicing medicine again

...

Your post made me belly laugh all the way through ! Good job!

Though I still think that if a hospital does sterilize a woman against her wishes (even through a misunderstanding, mistake or inattention and carelessness and not malice, lying to her or idiotically taking it upon themselves to do what they thought was right for her) they should be very severely punished, as they committed a gross violation of human rights.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I think you should put your money where your genitals are and get yourself sterilized. If you won't do this for what you consider "good reasons", realize that everyone has good reasons not to be sterilized, and it's impractical and unethical to subject every couple/woman to majority vote.

Your reasoning is fallacious. By the same argument, I can't support the existence of prisons unless I myself go to jail, and I can't support the right to shooting in self-defense unless i'm willing to arrange to get shot.
Because society affords benefits to every citizen, society has the right to control the process by which we produce more citizens.
Having children is not a right.

 

[pgwenthold]

Now YOU'RE swinging all the way the other crazy direction. The doctor who did the sterilization, whether intentional or not, should be punished, along with anyone who helped him or her,

Including the hospital that provided an operating room? The colleagues who allowed a culture where this kind of mistake can occur? I kind of think that is what drkitten is suggesting.

We are all on the same page here, but there are different degrees of what should be considered "helping."

 

[ponderingturtle]

I do not disagree with your statement above at all, but I think there is more to this story than what was published in the newspaper. We can assume based on the what has been published, the hospital is in the wrong and should pay, but the fact that this just at the beginning of the lawsuit, no one side will reveal all evidence to a reporter that is to be presented in front of a judge and possibly a jury before hand.

My point is that unless the hospital can prove consent, and provided she did get the procedure, they are ridiculously libel. If the article gets those fundamental facts wrong then why is a conclusion due to the bad data something wrong?

I am not in any position to do anything to the hospital and would want confirmation of those facts if I was.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That is the adage that led to the conclusion there were massive stockpiles of WMD in Iraq.

I never new Iraq was a hospital in the US.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Now YOU'RE swinging all the way the other crazy direction. The doctor who did the sterilization, whether intentional or not, should be punished, along with anyone who helped him or her, including whoever had the responsibility of securing the woman's permission for the procedure and failed. But why should the rest of the people be punished?

That's like shutting down every GM plant if there's a recall on a seat belt latch. That's like disbanding a town if a bridge in that town collapses. That's like shutting down JREF because 2-3 people violated the rules of the forum.

Ridiculous. Let's keep this conversation in the tall part of the bell curve, shall we?

So you are against punishing those who keep proven techniques of reducing these kinds of problems out of practice? Look at the uproar over check lists in surgical settings.

 

[Rasmus]

Because society affords benefits to every citizen, society has the right to control the process by which we produce more citizens.
Having children is not a right.

Well, what are you gonna do about it?

Boy sleeps with girl, offspring happens. You have no right to stop that from happening.

No, society has no right whatsoever to dictate two consenting adults wether to have children or not.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Your reasoning is fallacious. By the same argument, I can't support the existence of prisons unless I myself go to jail, and I can't support the right to shooting in self-defense unless i'm willing to arrange to get shot.
Because society affords benefits to every citizen, society has the right to control the process by which we produce more citizens.
Having children is not a right.

No.

First of all, if you take Biology 101, you'll discover that nature controls the process by which we produce more citizens. And if having children is not a right, who exactly should have the power to decide this?

You're living under the same rules as the prisoners. If you break certain laws, you go to prison, just like them. They broke them, and you didn't, so they go, and you don't. But the rules are the same for everyone.

Entering your house without permission, particularly with malicious intent, subjects all people who do so to the possibility that they will be shot. You doing the same to someone else subjects you to the same thing. In terms of being shot in self-defense, the rules are the same for everyone.

However, you support sterilization. If you don't or won't get sterilized yourself, then you are applying your rules to other people but not yourself. You think society should determine who should have kids. I am in society. I have ordered you to go get sterilized. If you can't live under the rules you want everyone else to live under, then your rules are crap.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Including the hospital that provided an operating room? The colleagues who allowed a culture where this kind of mistake can occur? I kind of think that is what drkitten is suggesting.

We are all on the same page here, but there are different degrees of what should be considered "helping."

The hospital, yes. Colleagues, no.

People make this mistake all the time: They apply rules to a situation they aren't involved in, and completely fail to apply it to a hypothetical situation they COULD be involved in.

You ostensibly have a job. Are you suggesting that you yourself face a penalty, including a financial penalty, termination or jail time, when one of your coworkers screws up? Should you be charged with watching your coworkers at all times?

It's so simple to do this, no matter what job you have. You're a pilot. You should be disciplined for not watching those pilots who had their laptops out? You're a barista. You should be fired because another barista stole an espresso machine? You're a McDonald's employee. You should be fired, jailed and sued because some idiot spilled coffee on themselves while you were running the grill?

I hope I've made my point. There is a responsibility for certain individuals to watch doctors, sure, but it's chiefs, administrators, etc. It's people who set hospital policy and ensure all employees follow that policy. And I'm consistent in this belief. This doctor who sterilized the woman - I wouldn't say it was his or her responsibility to ensure the pharmacist is consistently dispensing the correct medicine, either.

 

[Dorian Gray]

So you are against punishing those who keep proven techniques of reducing these kinds of problems out of practice? Look at the uproar over check lists in surgical settings.

So you are 100% pro-strawman?

I am not making comments about practices and procedures, or problems endemic to the system, or comparing our medical system to those of other countries, or introducing Star Trek medicine, holistic medicine, eastern medicine, anti-vaxxers, etc., etc., etc.

The facts I have come from the cited article, and maybe one or two similar articles. I am limiting my comments to that. Unless the hospital produces a document signed by the woman giving consent for a tubal ligation procedure, I am for punishing the doctor and the hospital, as well as whoever is in charge of securing signed consent forms prior to a procedure. It doesn't matter to me what this woman's prior circumstances are, how many kids she has, or her socioeconomic status. Sterilization without consent is unethical and wrong, and should carry a penalty every time (aside from those extremely rare accidents or birth complications, which are light years from the norm, and not applicable to this situation in any case).

 

[quixotecoyote]

Unless the hospital produces a document signed by the woman giving consent for a tubal ligation procedure, I am for punishing the doctor and the hospital, as well as whoever is in charge of securing signed consent forms prior to a procedure.

So, how come you're in favor of forcing the hospital to provide documentation of consent, but not forcing the woman to provide evidence it happened at all?

It could very well have happened, but I don't like how you immediately assumed evidence that let you take a given side.

 

[AvalonXQ]

No.

First of all, if you take Biology 101, you'll discover that nature controls the process by which we produce more citizens. And if having children is not a right, who exactly should have the power to decide this?

You're living under the same rules as the prisoners. If you break certain laws, you go to prison, just like them. They broke them, and you didn't, so they go, and you don't. But the rules are the same for everyone.

Entering your house without permission, particularly with malicious intent, subjects all people who do so to the possibility that they will be shot. You doing the same to someone else subjects you to the same thing. In terms of being shot in self-defense, the rules are the same for everyone.

However, you support sterilization. If you don't or won't get sterilized yourself, then you are applying your rules to other people but not yourself. You think society should determine who should have kids. I am in society. I have ordered you to go get sterilized. If you can't live under the rules you want everyone else to live under, then your rules are crap.

Wrong. It means that just like I don't believe I should be jailed under the rules by which some people should be jailed or shot under the rules that some people should be shot, I don't believe I should be sterilized under the rules that some people should be.
But I definitely don't believe we have a right to have children or be parents, and so I believe that society has the right to take away our ability to do so.

 

[Ravynn123]

35 and a grandma? I'm 36 and don't have ANY grandkids...I must be doing something wrong.

I'm 50 and don't have ANY kids...I must be doing something right.

I am 40 and have two grandkids. I guess I did something right until I reached 39 (when my grandson was born) 40 (when my granddaughter was born)????