What if Michael Moore had not made "Sicko"?

[Cicero]

If Moore uses dishonest techniques in Sicko, then point these out. But anything he did or didn't do in any previous film is irrelevant.

Rolfe.

M&M's visit to the Cuban medical system is not exactly kosher. He plays the scene out as though he and his entourage just surprised the Cubans, when actually the entire scene was set up in advance. Didn't M&M and his entourage fly a commercial airline to Cuba? What's up with the phony boat trip sequence?


M&M also fails to mention the Cuban health care system is a double track. The track M&M praises is reserved for politicians, celebs, and Cubans with clout. The peons do not have access to this track.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I am always somewhat hesitant to participate in the US health insurance threads but the organization from which I have learned most about health insurance in the US is Consumers Union via Consumer Reports. They have provided detailed analyses, data, projections, costings and scenarios over the years. More depth than anything I have ever seen in anything posted or cited in this Forum.

Sicko mostly confirms what CU has reported.

 

[DC]

M&M's visit to the Cuban medical system is not exactly kosher. He plays the scene out as though he and his entourage just surprised the Cubans, when actually the entire scene was set up in advance. Didn't M&MM and his entourage fly a commercial airline to Cuba? What's up with the phony boat trip sequence?


M&M also fails to mention the Cuban health care system is a double track. The track M&M praises is reserved for politicians, celebs, and Cubans with clout. The peons do not have access to this track.

Evidence of this claim?

 

[Darth Rotor]

What if Michael Moore had not made "Sicko"?

The world would be a less stupid place.

There, on topic.

Happy?

By the way, insurance as the method was a handy tool when the preponderence of jobs in the US were in large corporations that could accrue the benefits of large risk dispersion. The past twenty years of both globalization and greater labor mobility has rendered that system awkward, at best, due to the decline in "worked in the same place/market/profession" for thirty years, and all the economies of scale that went with that.

If you don't bother to understand the root causes, which go back to the shape of the American economy for two generations, and focus only on the effect -- which you are somewhat guilty of doing, by the way, in your various analysis (some of which are excellent)-- you stand to recommend a solution with enormous potential to be as bad is the original problem.

So, how about you send money, rather than "good advice?" No matter how this system has to change, and change it will, the expense will be non trivial.

DR

 

[Rolfe]

its a huge Appeal to emotion.
But that is the problem of the topic, it is a very emotional topic.

I think that's why a discussion like this is fruitful, especially after watching the film more than once. The actual facts he presents can be examined without necessarily holding on to the emotional baggage.

i did indeed find one story a little strange.

1 H 14m . The guy came back to france when he discovered his illnes. talks about having no income, but then tells about having to call his employer to make sure he gets the remaining 35% payd. sounds like a very strange story but could be because he didnt tell the whole timeline, but its presented strange.

I need to look at that bit again.

another thing i remember from an earlier thread about sicko, is his controversial practises about the Cuba trip.

I remember a great deal of criticism in other threads about that trip. I was expecting something underhand. I was in fact very impressed with what he did.

He began by pointing out that many people injured during the Twin Towers rescue and cleanup effort are having great difficulty accessing healthcare. He then pointed out that the US is boasting about what great healthcare the terrorist prisoners in Camp Delta are getting. He organised a stunt where he pretended to take a boatload of these people to Guantanamo Bay and ask for them to be treated as well as the terrorists.

Pretended, yes. He knew they weren't going to let him in. The people in the boat knew that, and indeed the viewers knew that. So what was Moore going to do when the boat was turned away? And come to that, why did these people agree to go with him on such an obvious wild-goose chase?

Because he had arranged for them to be given medical attention in Cuba, right next door. No doubt the Cuban healthcare system agreed because it wanted to look good, and get good publicity. However the Americans were received kindly and treated well. These sequences weren't claiming that Cuba was utopia, but showing that even an impoverished country with few natural resources can actually turn in a passable job for its citizens, if the will is there.

In my own opinion, criticisms that label this as "dishonest tactics" are a defence mechanism against the fact that the point hits home only too well.

oh and its bigest flaw is that its only examples of some cases and not really statistics etc, and it picket the worst cases from the US and picked good or normal cases from other countrys, we also have our horror storys. and that wasnt pointed out at all.

Moore has been quite clear that his film was in response to all the right-wing presentations that cherrypick the horror stories from UHC systems, and sort of forget to say that people in these countries are actually pretty pleased with what they get. That's why I'd like to pick apart his examples in the same way as we have picked apart the examples Stossel gave, and others. These were quite blatantly dishonest, as could be shown objectively. I pointed at the thread where that was done. Now, can Moore's examples be dismissed in a similar way, or not?

So far, for me, Larry and Donna cannot.

Rolfe.

 

[DC]

The world would be a less stupid place.

There, on topic.

Happy?

By the way, insurance as the method was a handy tool when the preponderence of jobs in the US were in large corporations that could accrue the benefits of large risk dispersion. The past twenty years of both globalization and greater labor mobility has rendered that system awkward, at best, due to the decline in "worked in the same place/market/profession" for thirty years, and all the economies of scale that went with that.

If you don't bother to understand the root causes, which go back to the shape of the American economy for two generations, and focus only on the effect -- which you are somewhat guilty of doing, by the way, in your various analysis (some of which are excellent)-- you stand to recommend a solution with enormous potential to be as bad is the original problem.

So, how about you send money, rather than "good advice?" No matter how this system has to change, and change it will, the expense will be non trivial.

DR

she takes alot of time, patience and very good data and examples in an attempt to give advice how to save money.....

 

[gtc]

These sequences weren't claiming that Cuba was utopia, but showing that even an impoverished country with few natural resources can actually turn in a passable job for its citizens, if the will is there.

But do Cuba's citizens get that level of treatment or was it a stunt for the cameras?

 

[Darth Rotor]

she takes alot of time, patience and very good data and examples in an attempt to give advice how to save money.....

Talk is cheap.

I do not grin when somebody tells me that I have to spend money to save money, do you?

DR

 

[Cicero]

Evidence of this claim?

http://medicinacubana.blogspot.com/2005/11/healthcare-in-cuba-medical-apartheid.html

 

[Rolfe]

M&M's visit to the Cuban medical system is not exactly kosher. He plays the scene out as though he and his entourage just surprised the Cubans, when actually the entire scene was set up in advance. Didn't M&M and his entourage fly a commercial airline to Cuba? What's up with the phony boat trip sequence?


M&M also fails to mention the Cuban health care system is a double track. The track M&M praises is reserved for politicians, celebs, and Cubans with clout. The peons do not have access to this track.

Excuse me, but that first comment is an insult to the intelligence of the viewer. It was obvious that the boat wasn't going to get into Camp Delta, and to anyone who was thinking, then clearly something else had been arranged. If you really can't tell a dramatic presentational ploy from dishonesty, I'm sorry for you. Ditto if you think that these people who cycle across India don't actually have cameramen who aren't exactly on bikes.

Now I don't know if you're right about the Cuban system being two-tier. I would like to see evidence of that. This is because I saw a full documentary on the Cuban health service several years ago, and what was shown wasn't really inconsistent with what Moore showed. I await your evidence.

Nevertheless, even if that is true, does it make the US system one iota better?

Rolfe.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

It's going to be hard not to discuss Michael Moore because he's in the movie.

I think what Rolfe means is she wants there to be no ad hominems in the thread. So "Michael Moore did a poor job handling the facts of matter x" is a valid statement, while "Michael Moore is just another communist out to turn the USA into the next Soviet Union" are not. Nor, for that matter, are ad hominems about thread posters.

More on topic, I haven't watched Sicko because I consider Moore's films to rely too much on appeals to emotion, personal anecdotes and so on to be taken seriously. The discussions here are making me wonder if I should change my mind and give it a shot.

 

[Cicero]

Excuse me, but that first comment is an insult to the intelligence of the viewer. It was obvious that the boat wasn't going to get into Camp Delta, and to anyone who was thinking, then clearly something else had been arranged. If you really can't tell a dramatic presentational ploy from dishonesty, I'm sorry for you. Ditto if you think that these people who cycle across India don't actually have cameramen who aren't exactly on bikes.

Which is why all M&M's flicks are docugandas.

Now I don't know if you're right about the Cuban system being two-tier. I would like to see evidence of that. This is because I saw a full documentary on the Cuban health service several years ago, and what was shown wasn't really inconsistent with what Moore showed. I await your evidence.

see post #29

Nevertheless, even if that is true, does it make the US system one iota better?

Rolfe.

I thought your challenge was to present M&M's "dishonest techniques in Sicko?" Now you have moved the goal posts. OK.

M&M showed a list of where the United States was in providing health care. . While the United States was not high on the list, Cuba was two places lower than the US. So yes, a couple of iotas.

 

[Rolfe]

http://medicinacubana.blogspot.com/2005/11/healthcare-in-cuba-medical-apartheid.html

Following the loss of Soviet subsidies, Cuba developed special hospitals and set aside floors in others for exclusive use by foreigners who pay in hard currency. These facilities are well-equipped to provide their patients with quality modern care. Press reports indicate that during 1996 more than 7,000 "health tourists" paid Cuba $25 million for medical services.

This is stating that Cuba has a health tourism industry. This is not uncommon. India does the same thing. (Someone tried it in Scotland too, but the enterprise went bust and the NHS took over the facilities.) However, Moore categorically states that his party were not availing themselves of such a facility. He asks the doctor to confirm that the care being given to the Americans is the same standard as ordinary Cubans can access. And I repeat that what I saw was reasonably consistent with the entirely unrelated documentary about healthcare in Cuba which I saw earlier.

I note that this article, later, criticises the Cuban health tourism industry for "diverting scarce resources". However, investment in any industry that will generate hard foreign currency seems to me to be an overall benefit to the country, so I'm not that impressed by the analysis.

Rolfe.

 

[DC]

Talk is cheap.

I do not grin when somebody tells me that I have to spend money to save money, do you?

DR

well i do compare what we pay and what we get for our money as a country and as induviduals, and when i see something isnt right, like with the US system, then i atleast consider thinking and debating about it rather than sticking my finger in my ears and sing lalalalala.

but hey its you people that have to decide it and live with it. But i think its one of the few things where the US can learn from other, rather the other way around, but sometimes pride and patriotism stands in the way of that.

 

[Rolfe]

I thought your challenge was to present M&M's "dishonest techniques in Sicko?" Now you have moved the goal posts. OK.

You need to read the OP again. My challenge was to subject Sicko to the same scrutiny we subjected Stossel's Sick in America to, and the other right-wing polemic trashing universal healthcare. Do his examples stand up to scrutiny? Stossel's non-US ones certainly didn't! And does the film actually succeed in substantiating Moore's intended message?

The Cuban sequence was presented dramatically, but that doesn't have much bearing on the facts.

• Some Americans who were injured during the Twin Towers rescue and cleanup are finding it difficult to access healthcare. Yes or no?
• The US government boasts about the high quality of healthcare provided to the terrorist detainees in Camp Delta. Yes or no?
• Ordinary American citizens cannot access the care provided to the terrorists. Yes or no?
• Even impoverished Cuba tries to provide healthcare to all its citizens. Yes or no?

These are the points I took from the sequence, and the points that are worth discussing. I don't think you've proved that the picture given of Cuban healthcare was significantly deceptive, but even if it were, the points above remain.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

DC, please, as a favour to me, please delay general discussion about the US healthcare system (which is occupying a good half-dozen other threads also) until we've at least looked at the film here!

Rolfe.

 

[Darth Rotor]

well i do compare what we pay and what we get for our money as a country and as induviduals, and when i see something isnt right, like with the US system, then i atleast consider thinking and debating about it rather than sticking my finger in my ears and sing lalalalala.

It isn't your problem to solve, DC. I thank you for your interest in American affairs.

 

[Rolfe]

I think what Rolfe means is she wants there to be no ad hominems in the thread. So "Michael Moore did a poor job handling the facts of matter x" is a valid statement, while "Michael Moore is just another communist out to turn the USA into the next Soviet Union" are not. Nor, for that matter, are ad hominems about thread posters.

More on topic, I haven't watched Sicko because I consider Moore's films to rely too much on appeals to emotion, personal anecdotes and so on to be taken seriously. The discussions here are making me wonder if I should change my mind and give it a shot.

Correct. Discuss the film without the ad hominem. As if you'd never heard of Michael Moore before, you've no idea he ever made another film or wrote a book. No pre-conceptions.

On your second point, I've watched Moore's work to be informed on what everyone was going on about, and because I find him entertaining. Normally, I can easily recognise that he's over-egging the cake to high heaven, even if I agree with him.

This time, not so much.

Rolfe.

 

[Cicero]

Nevertheless, even if that is true, does it make the US system one iota better?

Rolfe.

M&M's own list of countries with the best and worst health care showed U.S. at #37 and Cuba at #39. Careful with the hyperbole. You are discrediting M&M's docuganda all by yourself.

 

[Darth Rotor]

On your second point, I've watched Moore's work to be informed on what everyone was going on about, and because I find him entertaining. Normally, I can easily recognise that he's over-egging the cake to high heaven, even if I agree with him.

This time, not so much.

Rolfe.

Even intelligent people are able to engage in fallacy: argumentum ad Mooreum noted.