Water 4 Gas

...
Also, 'useful' seems not to be as limited as you think, since I already cited a production model that was lightweight and had what it needed. ...
To reiterate a previous post of mine.

NO compressed air powered car is currently in production at the moment.
It's rather telling that the proposed air-car, the Tato Nano, is first to be released with a petrol engine, and even the expected start of it's production in 2008 is way behind.

At the moment compressed-air cars are still in commercial R&D and have been for quite a number years.

Any claims on performance of these cars are virtual and have not been demonstrated by an actual, constructed vehicle.
 
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At risk of being off topic, following is a link to a possible "hydrogen-hybrid" which just might make a difference.
The technology is the catalytically improved hydrogen- oxygen splitting
This may be feasible.

http://www.advancedhydrogenpowersystems.com/index.html


I took a look at the site. Here's the abstract from the patent application.
The apparatus contains a means to create superheated steam at a temperature of preferably 800.degree. C. The superheated steam is delivered to a catalytic decomposition converter that contains ceramic membranes that function to decompose water H.sub.2O into its constituent elements of diatomic hydrogen and oxygen. In one embodiment, a cascade of catalytic cells, one set for hydrogen and one set for oxygen are arranged in a unique "Cascade and Recirculate" configuration that greatly improves the throughput of the catalytic process. Only enough hydrogen is produced and delivered to the fuel cell according to the real time demand. There is no hydrogen storage on board. An electrically heated boiler initializes the process, and thereafter the heat from the exothermic reaction of a high-temperature fuel cell, and a small hydrocarbon burner sustains the operational superheated steam temperature. By using the by-product heat of a high temperature fuel cell in conjunction with the efficient combustion of a small amount of conventional hydrocarbon fuel, a unique thermodynamic hybrid system is created. The electrical energy generated by the fuel cell is used to maintain the charged state of a traction battery. A plurality of pumps, valves, regulators and sensors under microprocessor control manage the processes.


So... you're heating water to produce hydrogen+oxygen, then burning it in a fuel-cell to produce power to charge a battery, and then using the waste-heat from the process to re-heat the water to produce hydrogen+oxygen, then burning it in a fuel-cell to produce power...

And then adding just a little bit of conventional fuel to keep this perpetual motion machine ticking over?
 
And then adding just a little bit of conventional fuel to keep this perpetual motion machine ticking over?

If I recall correctly, they claim the fuel cell is capable of delivering 50kW of power while the auxiliary heater needs on the order of 3-5kW. In the patent documents, they admit the auxiliary header didn't need to be fossil-fuel based; an electric heater would work just as well. Also, the few ounces of water needed weren't actually consumed; they were just necessary to jump-start the process. There after, all the steam is regenerated.

So, 5kw input to get 50kW output with no additional inputs. Such a deal.
 
I took a look at the site. Here's the abstract from the patent application.



So... you're heating water to produce hydrogen+oxygen, then burning it in a fuel-cell to produce power to charge a battery, and then using the waste-heat from the process to re-heat the water to produce hydrogen+oxygen, then burning it in a fuel-cell to produce power...

And then adding just a little bit of conventional fuel to keep this perpetual motion machine ticking over?

I don't know if it's perpetual motion... I am looking at the notion as recovering all the heat one may...However, water takes so many btu's to flash to steam, I think that the condensing cycle of the H20 ,water/steam/water would have losses, but, co-generation does cut losses.
The real breakthrough would be the efficient splitting of H20, so that there is a chance to obtain usable energy,when recombining.
I also find it a little disturbing that the paper seems to indicate an electrical heater could serve as the flash-off device, and there would still be usable energy left for propulsion. Wouldn't that depend on how effective the catalyst is?
What the hell, it makes more sense than KOA's pal's gadget. Or, Brown's gas gadgets. Or, Steorn.
Time will tell. The gadget has been patented by an associate's dad-in-law. I realize patents are handed out without need of working prototype.
If anyone can poke it full of holes, it'll be someone here. I have utmost confidence in you.:)
 
The question now is, why isn't EVERYONE scrambling to get one of this installed???
So my friend came over the other day. He started flapping his arms and in no time he was flying. No plane, no wings, no power other than his muscles. So, you guessed it, I started flapping my arms and I was flying. The question now is, why isn't EVERYONE flapping their arms and flying?
 
STOP THE PRESSES!

Why are we still talking about Water4Gas? Here is a $200 device you stick on the end of your tailpipe, that increases fuel efficiency by 5 MPG!!!!

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/eco-friendly-car-filtration-device-blade.php


Wow! And doing it at the absolute furthest point from your engine! Amazing!

Sorry, I realize this is not a HHO device but I thought I'd bring it up and didn't see a general automotive snake oil thread.

Lol Dan's Data had a good summary of this one:

The Blade filter is, however, somehow supposed to decrease CO2 emissions as well, by “up to 12%“. This strikes me as a very peculiar claim. What’s it doing with the CO2? Cracking it to carbon that stays in the filter and oxygen that’s released?

Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that this near-magical feat is in fact what it’s doing. Doing this with nothing but exhaust heat to work with would, I think, be a Nobel-prize-winning achievement, but never mind. How much carbon would the thing actually have to catch, even if you replaced it every 7000 miles on the dot?

Well, the carbon dioxide molecule contains two oxygen atoms (atomic weight 16) and one carbon (atomic weight 12). So by weight, it’s about 27.3% carbon.

7000 miles of driving is 11265 kilometres. If you’re driving a car which emits a mere 100 grams of CO2 per kilometre, it’ll emit a total mass of 1126.5 kilograms of CO2 over that period. The total mass of the carbon atoms in that much CO2 is 307.2 kilograms. Let’s say that in this case the Blade’s “up to 12%” CO2 catching turns out to mean “6%”. 6% of 307.2 kilograms is 18.4 kilograms.

So if there isn’t eighteen kilograms of soot in the filter when you replace it, you haven’t caught six per cent of the carbon.

Note that carbon also isn’t very dense. Even diamond only weighs about 3.5 grams per cubic centimetre. So even if the magic filter turned the magically extracted carbon into diamonds, you’d still end up with 5267 cubic centimetres, 312 cubic inches, of them clogging up the filter in the above situation. Graphite is only about 2.2 grams per cubic centimetre; that’d be 8379cc, 511 cubic inches, 2.2 US gallons, all somehow having to fit in the filter.

You could deal with the gallons of carbon clog by just burning off the carbon, but that would of course defeat the purpose of collecting it in the first place. Or you could just blow the soot out the exhaust pipe, but this would increase particulate matter emissions, which the Blade, you’ll recall, is meant to reduce.

As far as improved fuel economy goes, it’s uncontroversial that you can reduce the fuel consumption of internal combustion engines by restricting the air intake or, less elegantly, the exhaust. Restricting air intake is exactly what you’re doing whenever you don’t have the throttle wide open.

http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/10/24/even-better-than-a-banana-in-the-tailpipe/
 
Wow, I thought water for gas was bad, but this is amazing. It has no physically possible mechanism for working at all. None. There isn't even the hint of a mechanism.
 
Wow, I thought water for gas was bad, but this is amazing. It has no physically possible mechanism for working at all. None. There isn't even the hint of a mechanism.

It fixes the problem of having people criticising directly the mechanism to say it doesn’t work. And now we have to use a more generalized explanation that the scientific illiterate people can’t understand very well.
 
The real breakthrough would be the efficient splitting of H20, so that there is a chance to obtain usable energy,when recombining.


Remember... the law of conservation of energy.
The energy gained from combining hydrogen with oxygen is identical to the energy required to split hydrogen from oxygen, minus the many, many losses in a practical system.

If you're thinking of using this device to produce hydrogen, it would be far more efficient to extract the hydrogen directly from the hydrocarbon fuel. The process is already commonplace.

Currently, the most efficient method of hydrogen extraction we have is chemical extraction from hydrocarbons

:)

WTF? While looking up that quote and link, I came across this bull****. :eye-poppi
 
Cool, and they are using nonradioactive carbon rods. How much better does it get :D
 
#249

jsfisher quote..snip...

Output > input.

That makes it a perpetual motion device.

No, fuel is required as input.




BrianM--quote:
Remember... the law of conservation of energy.
The energy gained from combining hydrogen with oxygen is identical to the energy required to split hydrogen from oxygen, minus the many, many losses in a practical system.
snip*

Not necessarily in the presence of a catalyst. As the reactants are removed from one side, no 2nd Law violation occurs. (I thimk)(Chem classes involved a lot of-distraction for me.)(Think boobs)

While I agree with most of the comments, and have no dog in this fight, Mr. Vic, If H2 can be dissociated from the O2 cheaply enough, and if the high temp fuel cell can be made to be reliable, this notion may work. Though why they would want to power an ICE with this I don't know.
That's a lotta iffin' work.:D

I note from the website, they're looking for funding...

:jaw-dropp
 
#249

jsfisher quote..snip...

Output > input.

That makes it a perpetual motion device.

No, fuel is required as input.


I already included the fuel as part of the input.

The claim was that between 3 and 5kW in auxiliary power is required for heating the steam. It can be a fossil-fuel based heater, if you like, or an electric heater (which makes the scam more obvious), but either way, the output of 50kW exceeds the input of 3 to 5kW.
 
Not necessarily in the presence of a catalyst. As the reactants are removed from one side, no 2nd Law violation occurs. (I thimk)(Chem classes involved a lot of-distraction for me.)(Think boobs)


The energy required to break molecular bonds is always equal or greater than the energy released when forming them. The use of catalysts does not change this.

Extracting the hydrogen from the hydrocarbon fuel it runs off would still be far more efficient than burning the hydrocarbon fuel to extract the hydrogen from water.

(It's a bit like using firewood to power the steam generator which runs your electric heater. Sure, it'll work, but it's more efficient just to throw the firewood in the fireplace.)
 
You guys, jsfisher& brian m. , make very compelling points.
Dammitol, no free lunch, again.
Now, how to tell my associate his dad-in-law is a scammer. Or, not. As I stated, I have no dog in this fight.
 

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