The Iraq Invasion. Leaving aside the WMD issue, was it really worth it?

We gave a country a chance at freedom.
Freedom also means self-determination, and considering the construction of a huge embassy and four large, permanent military bases it is questionable whether the US ever planned to allow Iraq that.

In addition, the validity of your statement depends on our definition of the word "country". Many Kurds seem to consider the concept of "their country" more closely with Kurdistan than with Iraq. Allowing them freedom for their country opens a huge can of worms.

There is no price to high for freedom.
You are quite wrong here. It doesn't matter what price freedom is worth to you, you have no right whatsoever to make that decision for others. And since you're not an Iraqi, you don't even get a vote on the issue in this particular case.
 
Freedom also means self-determination, and considering the construction of a huge embassy and four large, permanent military bases it is questionable whether the US ever planned to allow Iraq that.

Yeah! Because God knows the Germans don't have self-determination, what with the military bases we've kept there since we defeated them. Why, we even forced them to support the Iraq invasion!

Oh, wait...

You are quite wrong here. It doesn't matter what price freedom is worth to you, you have no right whatsoever to make that decision for others. And since you're not an Iraqi, you don't even get a vote on the issue in this particular case.

And the Iraqis didn't get a vote on the issue under Saddam either. Which puts appeals to their right to decide the issue at a bit of an impass.
 
Ive just been Youtubing and found some stuff I found pretty interesting... Dont worry they aren't like some of the photos I posted.... enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGsK0MT-aYM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iK9Wy-OIy8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVpXFAmyRmA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llGYRIqioG8

Baghdad TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOxQnXqU42o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ6RKVTQ24g&feature=related

"I am an american soldier and I like Iraq. I would like to visit there after the war is over, it's very interesting. Some of the people hate you no matter what. But most people if you are nice to them are nice to you, invite you in to their home for tea and will even feed you. I was trying to talk to an old man in Arabic once. He thought it was funny to hear me talk in Arabic and gave me his prayer beads. He told me that God would keep me safe.... Nice people."

Reply to the above post on Youtube:

"Willis I am an Iraqi, and you do not how happy I feel when I hear from people like you. I wish there were more people and soldiers like you. The world would be a much better place. I played soccer, basketball, and danced with the troops during the first months after the ''invasion.'' Things seemed to go well, but the damn terrorists started attacking and now Iraqis are afraid from Americans and viceversa. The criminals are ruling the country now."

This one made me laugh!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POuohlIxRdk&feature=related
 
Oh yeah I know from experience some persian girls are really hot! :D

People please don't try to criticise the above links they are just for you to look at, I am not trying to suggest anything. Take whatever you like from them.
 
One of the things that gets me about the anti-war lobby, on this entire issue, is their constant referal to the National Security Estimate, that says Iraq has increased recruitment for terrorism.

Yet this is the same people they lambast about being wrong on WMD and the threat posed by Saddam.

Make your minds up people, only then we can move on!
 
Er... the censors have deemed photos of rivers, deserts and castles 'inapropriate material' :confused:

Fair play about the rape images although I still think it is a valid method of trying to understand the reality of the problem.
 
Last edited:
Yeah! Because God knows the Germans don't have self-determination, what with the military bases we've kept there since we defeated them.
No matter how much sarcasm you use, the planned presence of large foreign military bases and especially the huge embassy are tangible facts that match better with puppetism than full self-determination. Especially since a majority of the Iraqi population wants the US to leave at some point. (Link)

And the Iraqis didn't get a vote on the issue under Saddam either. Which puts appeals to their right to decide the issue at a bit of an impass.
History is loaded with examples of brutal dictators who at some point were overthrown by an uprising of the people, regardless of how they tried to kill off the opposition. No dictator has absolute power. The Iraqi people always had it within their own ability to get rid of Saddam, if their collective sufficiently wanted to. Sectarian divisions were probably a major reason why they didn't, as the current situation demonstrates.
But this particular topic is about whether is was really worth it. And as far as the price of freedom goes, the answer is solely up to those who both get the freedom and pay the price - iow, the Iraqi people.
 
No matter how much sarcasm you use, the planned presence of large foreign military bases and especially the huge embassy are tangible facts that match better with puppetism than full self-determination. Especially since a majority of the Iraqi population wants the US to leave at some point. (Link)
This takes us back to Japan and Germany. I dont' disagree with the general sentiment in Iraq that Americans have overstayed their welcome. That was obvious three years ago.

I disagree with your insinuation of puppetism by default.

Are South Koreans American puppets?

Japanese?

Germans?

Italians?

Spanish?

Not that I've noticed recently.

The size of the embassy is a red herring, the construction of numerous permanent bases is the larger concern.

Are those bases to be used by Iraqis in due course, or are they to be "little Americas" in Iraq? Are they joint use bases, like the base in Sigonella, Sicily, which is US Italian joint use, or are they purely American reservations?

To answer that, figure out what timeline are we talking about.

The next two years? Little Americas.

The next ten? Harder to say. Might be little Americas, might be joint use, might be turned over to Iraqis the way Cubi Point, Clarke AFB, and Subic Bay were turned over to the Philippines.

We've had bases in Germany for 62 years. Some have closed. Some remain.

DR
 
Last edited:
I mentioned this in another thread, but I'm willing to concede that even if they did lie, they lied with what they interpreted to be America's best interests at heart.

It's just they have a very skewed way of looking at America's "best interest" - skewed enough to work in the opposite way intended once put to the test.

I don't think they're so callous for wanting war for war's sake, or to pad their coffers. If friends ended up with nice contracts, if senators got their weapons system component manufacturing in their districts - then that's just a byproduct of the endeavour to do their best to "save America".

They're true believers. And that makes them more scary than if they were the Dr. Evil caricatures (a la South Park on 9/11 truth - lol) we hear about from troofers in my opinion.

At least then they'd be a bit more fathomable..;)

Yep.

History is loaded with examples of brutal dictators who at some point were overthrown by an uprising of the people, regardless of how they tried to kill off the opposition. No dictator has absolute power. The Iraqi people always had it within their own ability to get rid of Saddam, if their collective sufficiently wanted to. Sectarian divisions were probably a major reason why they didn't, as the current situation demonstrates.

That plus the fact that, as I understand it, for many (maybe most) Iraqis, the true loyalty is first to the family, then the clan, then the village. It's difficult to to encourage widespread united action among a group of people whose personal worldviews are so local.
 
Yep.



That plus the fact that, as I understand it, for many (maybe most) Iraqis, the true loyalty is first to the family, then the clan, then the village. It's difficult to to encourage widespread united action among a group of people whose personal worldviews are so local.


And there's also the fact that Saddam had money and weapons going his way for over a decade BEFORE the first Persian Gulf War. What kind of helicopters do you think he would dispatch to take out some shia resistance?
How could he afford to build the prisons where people were dissolved in acid? His apparatus of repression was enhanced in power - and would have had a lot less to work with - if he didn't satisfy the West's desperate efforts to put the Iranian regime down.

We forget the scale and the horror of the Iran-Iraq war, and the huge cost that took on both countries. Over a million soldiers and civilians died in both countries and it went on for eight years. Money poured in from all over the world to keep it going - mostly to Iraq, but Iran was able to squeeze in a few relationships to keep it alive during the darkest days. Western intelligence (read: US/UK) provided assistance, including the CIA providing Iranian troop movements that were later gassed.

What does a war like that do to any internal people who wanted Saddam out? Wars create a "rallying effect" around the leader of a country involved - whoever that leader is. We have to assume that any revolution against Saddam would find it difficult to succeed. Even if a part of the country, say a town or village, manage to take advantage of the chaos to temporarily establish a limited, local revolution - the state of war would permit a more terrible Saddam "response" than usual.

That only ended in 1988. Only three short years later, the CIA broadcast into the towns and villages of the Shi'a south: "Rise up" "Rise up". In 3 years time, there had built something of a little strength for change, in the wake of US Gulf War and the limited protection of a no-fly zone. "Police" (read military and domestic spies) had no trouble under the zones. But US contacts, a little money and this radio broadcast had their effect.

The Shia rose up. And certain towns were temporarily under the control of local revolutionaries, not Saddam.

But I guess the geostrategical implications kicked in - or should we say - deluded fear of Iranian power - and people started to wonder what might happen if the Shias actually pulled it off. There was probably a disconnect. One plan was going along, others disagreed with it - and once it started getting results the disagree-ers put a stop to it.

So Saddam asked for and received special permission to fly his helicopters (where did he get them?) in the no-fly zones - to put down this revolt.

These were the "mass graves" we heard so much about in the run up to the invasion of 2003.

After that brutal (and successful) repression, the life was wrung out of any effective resistance.

When subsistence conditions were the most to be hoped for under the sanctions regime for the next decade - you can understand why the Iraqi people were having trouble getting a revolution together (and this is just the sad Shia story, the Kurds weren't so lucky either).

So there's a pretty good reason why Saddam had such a stranglehold on power and why there was no revolution - because every step of the way, US policy has actually worked against that interest at every critical juncture.

There must be some people in the US government who tried to make it happen - but obviously they were overruled and/or marginalized by events.
 
Last edited:
So Saddam asked for and received special permission to fly his helicopters (where did he get them?) in the no-fly zones - to put down this revolt.

These were the "mass graves" we heard so much about in the run up to the invasion of 2003.

After that brutal (and successful) repression, the life was wrung out of any effective resistance.
Sort of a modern-day version of the Red Army stopping short of Warsaw to "regroup".

This episode, whether deliberate or not, severely injured American prestige among the Shia of Iraq. It is also one of the defining principles held by those "war-mongers" who thought that Gulf One ought to have had a more tangible result: The removal of Saddam.

In retrospect, the decision by the UN in Gulf One to subordinate military aims to political expediency was a poor one. Political expediency equally created the monster that Saddam became in the 1980s. Odd, then, that when the mistakes are finally corrected in 2003, critics blame Bush fils instead of all that came before him.
 
Political expediency equally created the monster that Saddam became in the 1980s. Odd, then, that when the mistakes are finally corrected in 2003, critics blame Bush fils instead of all that came before him.

I agree there is a myopia - and a detachment from day to day life for Iraqis and what their story has been like. There really isn't all that much exploration of the Iran-Iraq war out there at all - the best account I've read is from Robert Fisk, who spent many weeks and months on both sides of the war at different times throughout the conflict.

I just don't think that the mistakes were "corrected" in 2003, in fact, I believe they were compounded.

Still, the point remains that a longer view back would probably go a long ways to improving the Iraq debate.
 
Last edited:
One of the London bombers recorded a video and specifically mentioned that this was the first in a series of attacks until all troops are pulled from Iraq.
So... do you believe we should give in to terrorist demands? If you want to argue for withdrawal, fine with me. But please do so without resorting to the argument that we should give in to criminal behavior.
 
So... do you believe we should give in to terrorist demands? If you want to argue for withdrawal, fine with me. But please do so without resorting to the argument that we should give in to criminal behavior.

It's not a matter of giving in. Aggravating a group for no good reason doesn't make any sense, even if the response of some is not reasonable.
 
Here is a video I found linked on an Iraqis website:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcy73JpH5ak&eurl=http://last-of-iraqis.blogspot.com/

"In this video I used a song called "The new country" for a very popular Iraqi singer who is Husam AlRasam, it's not a new song, and it was released when I started blogging.
This song is very popular between Iraqis, I can say that more than 80% of Iraqis have it either on their mobile phones or computers."

If this song IS very popular with Iraqis then I assume there is a general consensus that the US troops don't belong there and they have only made a bad situation a lot worse.

Here is his website:

http://last-of-iraqis.blogspot.com/

I found my way onto his website from this:

http://hometownbaghdad.com/
 
Last edited:
On the Last Of Iraqis site there is a worrying blog about AlQaeda recruitment in prisons all over Iraq where the message is join us or lose your head. A man was beheaded because he entered a room leading with his right foot- which is a sin.... well that sounds reasonable to me. I am sure god would approve.
 
So... do you believe we should give in to terrorist demands? If you want to argue for withdrawal, fine with me. But please do so without resorting to the argument that we should give in to criminal behavior.

Look at the context. I made no argument about either giving in or withdrawal. The sentence you quote was in reply to Undesired Walrus who did not believe there was a connection between the London bombings and the invasion of Iraq.
 

Back
Top Bottom