A Gravy Paper: William Rodriguez, Escape Artist

Wow, some folks have some serious time on their hands. The nerd chills are thick.
 
RedIbis said:
Wow, some folks have some serious time on their hands. The nerd chills are thick.
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Wow, some people have well-honed senses of humour. Gee, why am I not surprised that this is alien to you?
 
R.Mackey said:
My preferred scenario, again, is electrical ignition at or near the bottom of the shaft, caused by frayed wires or other damage resulting from the runaway elevator. This is speculation, of course. We will never know for sure. Nor does it matter. It would only matter if there were no plausible explanations, and in fact, there are many.
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Are elevator door relays required to be sparkproof?
 
BenBurch said:
Are elevator door relays required to be sparkproof?
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I don't see why they would be, nor do I see why it matters. There were ample sources of ignition that could have come from the many floors of fire above.
 
A few observations here.

Swing Dangler said:
Ok, let me get this straight. The plane crashes, spills jet fuel all the way down Shaft 50 without it igniting into a fireball. Mr. Arturo whose elevator car's emergency breaks save his life experiences none of this jet fuel cascading down his shaft collecting in the bottom nor do anyone else in the basement witness or describe pools of jet fuel.
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If he was in the elevator car, and the jet fuel went round its outside, what would he notice? If the jet fuel collected in the elevator shaft wells, who would be there to observe it?

A full elevator had just left the 78th floor, and Carmen was about to carry up six or seven stragglers. The plane struck as the doors of her elevator closed. They could hear debris smash into the top of the car; then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in. Carmen jammed her fingers between the closed doors, pulled them partly open and held them as passengers clambered over and under her 5-foot-6 frame to escape.
Before finally throwing herself out onto the lobby floor, she glanced back to be sure the elevator was empty. That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck. Her hands were badly burned.
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This sounds like evidence for further ignition events a significant time after the impact - how long did it take for the passengers to escape and Carmen to "finally" get out herself? Clearly there was at least one fireball some time after the elevator was damaged, which is consistent with fuel pooling and subsequently igniting.

Note that Mrs. Griffith was not on the elevator that had access to the basement levels. Also note that, though she was burned, there was not a blast characteristic of an explosion that would cause such destruction as what was witnessed in the WTC1 basement levels, or else Mrs. Griffith surely would not have survived.
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This is consistent with different pools of jet fuel igniting at different times and with different intensities.

It has already been shown that the operator of elevator 50, the main freight, did not even experience a fireball, let alone life-threatening over-pressures, or vast amounts of jet fuel cascading down the shaft.
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Putting aside the blatantly misleading use of the word "vast", the latter point has not even been addressed, let alone disproved.

Dave
 
JonnyFive said:
"Nerd chills?"
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It's the chill you get when you realize you have a nerd on your tail. It's kind of like the chill you get when you're bombing down the highway, well over the speed limit, and then look in the rearview mirror and see a cop car sitting on your bumper. You know you're toast, no matter what you do.....
 
R.Mackey said:
False choice fallacy.

Your opening statement describes what I think happened to create the fireball that Rodriguez reported. That doesn't mean there was only one. Do you have any idea of how much jet fuel total there was in the building?? Or how many paths there were from point of impact to the bottom?

Also, you have overestimated the energy expended in the machine shop and in the parking garage, quote-mining Mr. Pecoraro. When he says something is "gone," that doesn't mean it has totally vaporized or shattered. Damaged, yes. And that damage is not at all inconsistent with the amount of jet fuel we're discussing.

There is no evidence of secondary devices. There is no phenomenology consistent with detonations of any kind, anywhere in the structure, at any time. That's really all there is to say.
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LOL. I'm not convinced you understand the definition of false choice. I've never stated there are only two choices. What I have stated is the empirical method supports the use of an explosive device or devices. The evidence is the amount of destruction described by survivors and the failed explanation for a fireball/delayed jet fuel pool explosion.

So According to Swing, his theory is completely valid because he has no evidence. I geuss tha's one way to look at it.
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No because it can easily be proven or disproven through chemical testing. You could also focus on the points disproving the fireball/ "Jet Fuel Pool" theory.

If he was in the elevator car, and the jet fuel went round its outside, what would he notice? If the jet fuel collected in the elevator shaft wells, who would be there to observe it?
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If you recall, there are accounts of the sprinkler system turning on and the amount of water witnessed cascading into the shafts. I would expect the same behavior from the amount of jet fuel necessary to cause the damage witnessed.

This sounds like evidence for further ignition events a significant time after the impact - how long did it take for the passengers to escape and Carmen to "finally" get out herself? Clearly there was at least one fireball some time after the elevator was damaged, which is consistent with fuel pooling and subsequently igniting.
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She escaped very quickly hence she is still alive. Two, there is no evidence of further jet fuel ignition. Third, her survival brings into question the over pressure damage closest to impact versus the over pressure needed to cause the destruction witnessed in the basement levels.
This is consistent with different pools of jet fuel igniting at different times and with different intensities.
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Now the "Jet Fuel Pool Theory" has become the "Multiple Jet Fuel Pool Theory"?
Can you please explain to me the source for multiple jet fuel pools and their subsequent ignition?
It has already been shown that the operator of elevator 50, the main freight, did not even experience a fireball, let alone life-threatening over-pressures, or vast amounts of jet fuel cascading down the shaft.
Putting aside the blatantly misleading use of the word "vast", the latter point has not even been addressed, let alone disproved.
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Vast is misleading? Please tell us how much jet fuel is required to destroy a parking garage, cause a cave in at the Path Level Plaza, destroy a machine shop, etc? Oh and what kind of over pressure data do you have on jet fuel to support this destruction?
 
Horatius said:
It's the chill you get when you realize you have a nerd on your tail. It's kind of like the chill you get when you're bombing down the highway, well over the speed limit, and then look in the rearview mirror and see a cop car sitting on your bumper. You know you're toast, no matter what you do.....
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Is the nerd in question armed with some kind of death ray?
 
On reflection we've moved the humorous posts back, but please don't de-rail the thread any further.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
RedIbis said:
Wow, some folks have some serious time on their hands. The nerd chills are thick.
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Apologies that I have free time during the day, then. I'll set the alarm for 4pm, that should give me time for the self-flagellation I'll need to inflict to atone for the heinous crime of only having to leave for the theatre at 5pm.



...back to your endless discussion of a paper that the truthers haven't actually read, then...
 
Darat said:
On reflection we've moved the humorous posts back, but please don't de-rail the thread any further.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
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Ach, but I was still chucklin' at the humour of DeidIbis nae kennin' whit "havers" meant!

Come on, Chillzero, you must have thought the same thing! Tha seo 's'math sinn!
 
Swing Dangler said:
A full elevator had just left the 78th floor, and Carmen was about to carry up six or seven stragglers. The plane struck as the doors of her elevator closed. They could hear debris smash into the top of the car; then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in. Carmen jammed her fingers between the closed doors, pulled them partly open and held them as passengers clambered over and under her 5-foot-6 frame to escape.
Before finally throwing herself out onto the lobby floor, she glanced back to be sure the elevator was empty. That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck. Her hands were badly burned.
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An afterthought on this one: She held the doors open, the elevator passengers climbed over her, she got out of the elevator herself, she glanced back, and then she got burned? How come she didn't get burned while everyone was climbing over her, unless there was a fireball that was delayed until some time after the elevator jammed? There were multiple escapes from the lift in which she didn't get burned, yet she was right where the fire was that burned her after she got out. Sounds like very clear evidence for a delayed ignition.

Dave
 
then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in.
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Fireball #1 associated with crash

That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck.
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Fireball #2 delayed from fuel igniting after crash

Don't you hate it when your own quote proves you wrong.....
 
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