A Gravy Paper: William Rodriguez, Escape Artist

Yes. But nothing that substantially alters the main point of the paper.

Rodriguez has substantially changed his story over time, in a manner and method that brings him more into the limelight. His current story is at odds with his earlier accounts. He is speaking falsly; the question is why.
 
R.Mackey said:
And since the ignition point could well have been at the bottom of the shaft, there is no overpressure problem. Nobody assumes there was a single, continuous, 80-story fireball all the way from point of impact to basement.
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I was just thinking - the fire from above died down after the initial explosion because all of the oxygen was consumed by the fireball above. Only as the oxygen from outside came back in did the fires above pick back up and became those infernos we all saw.

My question is this: Could there have been enough time in that sequence for jet fuel to get to the bottom of the shaft and then have been sparked off by the rekindling fires above?
 
Dave Rogers said:
I think I suggested that last week.

I think RedIbis and Swing Dangler chose to ignore the question.

Dave
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You "think" or you did? There is a quote function if you believe you addressed a question to me that I didn't answer.
 
RedIbis said:
You "think" or you did? There is a quote function if you believe you addressed a question to me that I didn't answer.
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Post 77 in the thread, "Gravy Papers concerning Rodriguez: Split from: Loose Change vs. William Rodriguez " - follow the link below.

Dave Rogers said:
Just out of interest, is the following a possible scenario?

[scenario snipped for brevity - I don't want to spam the forum]

Any problems with that, anyone?

Dave
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It wasn't specifically addressed to you, just a general question to the forum. I have no problem with you choosing to ignore it.

Dave
 
Swing Dangler said:
IHowever, an explosive device/devices would explain why the FBI used that as a working theory on that morning. It would account for the destroyed parking garage and PATH Level Plaza cave-in, it would explain why secretaries who were injured thought a bomb had went off in their office, it matches the description of damage in the basement, it explains why people nearest the impact survived the overpressure and blast but people and structures farthest away did not.
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Now if you can just conclusively demonstrate that there is no other reasonable alternative to explosives, you're all set. At least in terms of supposition.

You're still lacking in the physical evidence department however.
 
boloboffin said:
I was just thinking - the fire from above died down after the initial explosion because all of the oxygen was consumed by the fireball above. Only as the oxygen from outside came back in did the fires above pick back up and became those infernos we all saw.

My question is this: Could there have been enough time in that sequence for jet fuel to get to the bottom of the shaft and then have been sparked off by the rekindling fires above?
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The quantities of jet fuel we're talking about are so vast that all kinds of strange scenarios are possible. For example, NIST describes a flare-up on the 104th floor of WTC 1 that didn't happen until WTC 2 collapsed, and surmises that it was due to collected, but unburnt, jet fuel vapors (see pg. 245 of NCSTAR1-5A and pg. 76 of NCSTAR1-5F). I have some questions about other possible explanations for this, but it's possible.

More likely than being sparked by the fires above, I'd suggest that a burning ember from the fires above could have followed the fuel down the elevator shaft. The ignition point was probably low in the structure.

My preferred scenario, again, is electrical ignition at or near the bottom of the shaft, caused by frayed wires or other damage resulting from the runaway elevator. This is speculation, of course. We will never know for sure. Nor does it matter. It would only matter if there were no plausible explanations, and in fact, there are many.
 
R.Mackey said:
And since the ignition point could well have been at the bottom of the shaft, there is no overpressure problem. Nobody assumes there was a single, continuous, 80-story fireball all the way from point of impact to basement.
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Ok, let me get this straight. The plane crashes, spills jet fuel all the way down Shaft 50 without it igniting into a fireball. Mr. Arturo whose elevator car's emergency breaks save his life experiences none of this jet fuel cascading down his shaft collecting in the bottom nor do anyone else in the basement witness or describe pools of jet fuel. This amount of jet fuel must have been fairly large to cause the amount of destruction witnessed in the basement levels.
Then the jet fuel ignites after everyone is out of the shafts, destroying the parking garage, causing a cave in at the Path Level Plaza, and other types of damage above the shaft. This same pool of fuel reminds many survivors of the 1993 truck bombing as well as make a group of secretaries think a bomb went off in their office.

A brief account of Arturo's experience and why your "pool of jet fuel" theory is simply ridiculous.

The husband, Arturo Griffith, operated WTC1 elevator Car 50, which USA Today further describes as, “the big freight car going from the six-level basement to the 108th floor.”
[The Griffiths] were both operating elevators in the north tower on Sept. 11. Arturo was running 50A, the big freight car going from the six-level basement to the 108th floor. When American Airlines Flight 11 struck at 8:46 a.m., Arturo and a co-worker were heading from the second-level basement to the 49th floor. Like his wife, who had just closed the doors on a passenger elevator leaving the 78th floor, Arturo heard a sudden whistling sound and the impact. Cables were severed and Arturo's car plunged into free fall.
"The only thing I remember saying was 'Oh, God, Oh, God, I'm going to die,' " he says, recalling how he tried to protect his head as the car plummeted.
The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors. The imploding elevator door crushed Arturo's right knee and broke the tibia below it. His passenger escaped injury.
There is a one-story discrepancy of this elevator’s range with Otis Elevator Company’s 1967 Bulletin article (six vs. five accessible basement levels), but it remains clear that the main freight elevator is indeed the elevator relevant to this article.
Though the door to Mr. Griffith’s elevator was knocked out when the safety brakes caught the free-falling elevator, there was no fuel-air explosion (FAE) down this elevator shaft.

Remember that such an event is hypothesized to have not only traveled hundreds of feet down this elevator shaft into the basement, but to have also caused major destruction in the basement levels of WTC1 as reported by Rodriguez, Pecoraro, Morelli, and their co-workers, including a destroyed basement machine shop, and blown-out, lower-level elevators accessing the lobby. But now the story has twisted into vast amounts of un-ignited jet fuel that traveled down a single shaft again without anyone noticing.


A full elevator had just left the 78th floor, and Carmen was about to carry up six or seven stragglers. The plane struck as the doors of her elevator closed. They could hear debris smash into the top of the car; then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in. Carmen jammed her fingers between the closed doors, pulled them partly open and held them as passengers clambered over and under her 5-foot-6 frame to escape.
Before finally throwing herself out onto the lobby floor, she glanced back to be sure the elevator was empty. That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck. Her hands were badly burned.

Note that Mrs. Griffith was not on the elevator that had access to the basement levels. Also note that, though she was burned, there was not a blast characteristic of an explosion that would cause such destruction as what was witnessed in the WTC1 basement levels, or else Mrs. Griffith surely would not have survived.

Car 6
The following excerpt comes again from NIST NCSTAR 1-7, page 34 (page 72 of the PDF file).
In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
• Car #5: B1-5, 6, 9-40, 44
• Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107 (Dual-use express, see below)
[…]
There were two express elevators (#6 and #7) to Windows on the World (and related conference rooms and banquet facilities) in WTC 1 and two to the observation deck in WTC 2. There were five local elevators in each building: three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between floors 43 and 44, serving the cafeteria from the skylobby. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation requirements.
So we see that another elevator, Car 6, ran from the impacted floors of WTC1 to sublevel B1, but no further.

From page 122 of the same document (page 160 of the PDF file):
For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.

Here, NIST states explicitly that elevator Car 6, along with Car 50, were the sole elevators of WTC1 with access to the basements from the impacted floors of WTC1. And as noted in the previous excerpt from NCSTAR 1-7, Car 6 only reached sub level B1, the uppermost basement level, while explosions and other destructive events were observed on B1 as well as below B1, on B2 and possibly lower (see the above testimonies of Rodriguez and Pecoraro).

Conclusions:
All of the above information should bring us to the logical conclusion that a fuel-air explosion did not travel hundreds of feet down the main freight elevator shaft of WTC1, from the impacted floors to the basements, to cause structural damage to the basement floors and lobby nor did vast amounts of jet fuel. Car 50 was the only elevator with access from the impacted floors of WTC1 to the sub levels B6 and below, and its operator survived, having experienced no explosions or fireballs down the main freight shaft.
That such a fireball could have traveled down Car 6 has not specifically been ruled out by the above information, but it could not have extended beyond sub level B1, whereas explosive events caused much destruction on lower floors including a cave in at the Path Level Plaza!

Also, considering an FAE traveling down this shaft sufficient in strength to destroy a machine shop in the basement levels (as per Pecoraro’s testimony), even if this elevator had access to this floor, and cause elevators servicing the lowest floors to blow out (as per Walsh’s testimony), as well as additional structure damage in the basements, it seems extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that the shaft itself, and neighboring floors all the way down would not be similarly destroyed by the massive over pressures accompanying this FAE down the building. Put simply, an FAE moving down an elevator shaft and causing severe damage in basement levels with massive force, could also be expected to destroy the shaft itself, especially since this shaft would be a very confined area, and its wall supposedly not reinforced by any concrete in the walls or etc.
The visible fuel-air explosions caused by the impacts visibly failed to destroy even the outer perimeter columns of the impacted floors, or to even remove their aluminum cladding, which was only fastened on and not solidly connected. Only the plane impacts themselves severed perimeter columns or caused such damage to the aluminum cladding. There is no evidence of great over pressures from the fireball itself if it traveled down the shafts either in the interior or exterior.
How, then, could a fireball that failed to remove this aluminum cladding in its immediate blast, travel down over a thousand feet of an unprotected elevator shaft and maintain sufficient over pressures to shatter concrete and steel fire doors, and cause a cave in at level B-4?
It has already been shown that the operator of elevator 50, the main freight, did not even experience a fireball, let alone life-threatening over-pressures, or vast amounts of jet fuel cascading down the shaft. This fits logically with the lack of exterior damage shown above.

But now, RMackey, you want us to believe that enough jet fuel bypassed all of these events, collected in a pool, and then ignited with enough force to cause the damage described? The time frame of course for the "jet fuel pool" theory is completely illogical with the eyewitness and survivor statements and the Jenny Carr audio record. The "Magic Jet Fuel Pool Ignited By An Ember" theory has now left the building.

More realistic explanations of the WTC1 basement events, including the use of secondary explosive devices, should be considered.

I suggest continuing your debunking efforts of a theologian, because your logic in this case is completely flawed and ignores the facts of the day, the elevator layout, survivor testimonies, scientific over pressure and fuel/air ratio data, as well as the historical tactics of terrorists.
 
Corsair 115 said:
Now if you can just conclusively demonstrate that there is no other reasonable alternative to explosives, you're all set. At least in terms of supposition.

You're still lacking in the physical evidence department however.
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At first I thought jet fuel was a reasonable alternative, but after studying the issue, it is not reasonable in fact it is very unreasonable.
I do agree the physical evidence department is the largest issue of the theory, however, this would have been easily solved if chemical tests were done on a large enough sample to prove either way if explosives were used. You as well as I know this was not done, hence the theory remains the most valid theory to date and the most reasonable explanation as to what happened in the basement levels of the Towers.
 
Swing Dangler:
How did such a large incendiary device get planted under Willie's nose with out him knowing it. Surly someone in his position would know this was being brought in. He did know every inch of the building right?
 
Swing Dangler said:
Ok, let me get this straight. The plane crashes, spills jet fuel all the way down Shaft 50 without it igniting into a fireball. Mr. Arturo whose elevator car's emergency breaks save his life experiences none of this jet fuel cascading down his shaft collecting in the bottom nor do anyone else in the basement witness or describe pools of jet fuel. This amount of jet fuel must have been fairly large to cause the amount of destruction witnessed in the basement levels. [...]

More realistic explanations of the WTC1 basement events, including the use of secondary explosive devices, should be considered.

I suggest continuing your debunking efforts of a theologian, because your logic in this case is completely flawed and ignores the facts of the day, the elevator layout, survivor testimonies, scientific over pressure and fuel/air ratio data, as well as the historical tactics of terrorists.
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False choice fallacy.

Your opening statement describes what I think happened to create the fireball that Rodriguez reported. That doesn't mean there was only one. Do you have any idea of how much jet fuel total there was in the building?? Or how many paths there were from point of impact to the bottom?

Also, you have overestimated the energy expended in the machine shop and in the parking garage, quote-mining Mr. Pecoraro. When he says something is "gone," that doesn't mean it has totally vaporized or shattered. Damaged, yes. And that damage is not at all inconsistent with the amount of jet fuel we're discussing.

There is no evidence of secondary devices. There is no phenomenology consistent with detonations of any kind, anywhere in the structure, at any time. That's really all there is to say.
 
RedIbis said:
Call it what you want, but when the business here is character assassination, I'm going to ask for precision.
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Havers. There is no basis to your claim that Gravy's quote sought to misrepresent its sources saving for your own interpretation.
 
Architect said:
Havers. There is no basis to your claim that Gravy's quote sought to misrepresent its sources saving for your own interpretation.
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What's havers?

The rest is your opinion. These are only the first few examples that I'm raising. I was hoping that Gravy might have the humility to suspend his ignorance (I mean that in the literal sense since Gravy has me on ignore) to address these various claims in his paper.

Let's be realistic for a moment, it's not a scholarly article, it's not an example of investigative journalism, it's a personal rant that's not much more than an open letter. I've pointed out unsubstantiated claims, misrepresentation of quotations and a lack of logic in relation to the time necessary for the thesis to be valid.

Trust me, I'll keep going.
 
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So According to Swing, his theory is completely valid because he has no evidence. I geuss tha's one way to look at it....

Because no one has proven Santa doesn't exist means it's only logical to assume he does and that he was behind 9/11. had someone bothered to test for Santa Claus at the WTC, we could have ruled that out, but since that isn't the case, I am left to assume Santa was behind the plot. And now to ignore all the rest of the evidence...
 
Alpha Team Report - Split from: A Gravy Paper: William Rodriguez, Escape Artist

//Transmission Begins//​

Alpha-Team Report​

Stardate: 30.12.3020

Location: JREF Mexaplex; CT Division; Bunker 12A

//Signing on: Mobyseven; T.A.M.; Qarnos

Timestamp: 2034​

Mobyseven: T.A.M., Qarnos, can you hear me?

T.A.M.: Affirmative.

Qarnos: Affirmative, Mobyseven. Looks like no one has been here for centuries.

T.A.M.: Agreed. This bunker is dead, nothing to look at here.

Mobyseven: Nothing living. Might find something to salvage though. Spread out and search for anything that might be valuable. Meet back at the entrance at 2100.

T.A.M.: Roger that.

-Break Transmission-

Timestamp: 2049​

Qarnos: I think I've struck paydirt.

T.A.M.: What have you found?

Qarnos: Looks like an antique ceramic bird...worn and faded, a dull rusty colour now, but we could give it to Father Darat to restore. I'll run a diagnostic on it.

Mobyseven: Be careful. We have to make sure we don't bring foreign pathogens out of this hellhole with us.

Qarnos: Roger that, I'm scanning now...what the hell?

T.A.M.: What is it?

Qarnos: This bird isn't ceramic. It's organic, and according to my analysis it's...

RedIbis: Graagh! Misrepresentation! Out of context!

Qarnos: Emergency, Alpha-Team! He's trying to pick nits off me! He's going to break through my containment su...<white noise>

//Signed off: Quarnos

T.A.M.: Oh, blast and rule eight.

Mobyseven: Best return to the entrance. We'll regroup and send in a rescue mission.

-Break Transmission-

Timestamp: 2100​

Architect: Donna step there, lad. Ye donna ken whatcha doin'!

T.A.M.: What? Who's there?

Architect: Jes' me, the old Architect. Step there an' you'll regret it, lad. This den has booby traps comin' out its arse.

T.A.M.: What are you doing down here?

Architect: I guard the sacred relics hidden in this bunker. The Gravy Papers.

T.A.M.: The Gravy Papers? I thought they were a myth!

Architect: Aye, seems what ye ken could nay fill a bucket, lad. Follow me to the dungeons, but fer Wallace's sake, watch out for the Swing Dangler!

T.A.M.: The 'Swing Dangler'? Is that some kind of booby trap?

Architect: Aye, lad! Watch yer head, feredssake!

//Signed off: T.A.M.

Architect: Ach. They ne'er listen to me.

-Break Transmission-

Timestamp: 2120​

Mobyseven: Alpha-Team report: Two casualties, missing, presumed dead. A rescue effort would likely result in more casualties, and is therefore advised against. Recommendation is to permanently lock Bunker 12A...how it continues to support life, let alone intelligent conversation, is beyond my understanding. Mobyseven, signing out.

//Signed off: Mobyseven

//Transmission Ends//​

 
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Mobyseven said:
//Transmission Begins//​

Alpha-Team Report​

Stardate: 30.12.3020

Location: JREF Mexaplex; CT Division; Bunker 12A

//Signing on: Mobyseven; T.A.M.; Qarnos

Timestamp: 2034​

Mobyseven: T.A.M., Qarnos, can you hear me?

T.A.M.: Affirmative.

Qarnos: Affirmative, Mobyseven. Looks like no one has been here for centuries.

T.A.M.: Agreed. This bunker is dead, nothing to look at here.

Mobyseven: Nothing living. Might find something to salvage though. Spread out and search for anything that might be valuable. Meet back at the entrance at 2100.

T.A.M.: Roger that.

-Break Transmission-

Timestamp: 2049​

Qarnos: I think I've struck paydirt.

T.A.M.: What have you found?

Qarnos: Looks like an antique ceramic bird...worn and faded, a dull rusty colour now, but we could give it to Father Darat to restore. I'll run a diagnostic on it.

Mobyseven: Be careful. We have to make sure we don't bring foreign pathogens out of this hellhole with us.

Qarnos: Roger that, I'm scanning now...what the hell?

T.A.M.: What is it?

Qarnos: This bird isn't ceramic. It's organic, and according to my analysis it's...

RedIbis: Graagh! Misrepresentation! Out of context!

Qarnos: Emergency, Alpha-Team! He's trying to pick nits off me! He's going to break through my containment su...<white noise>

//Signed off: Quarnos

T.A.M.: Oh, blast and rule eight.

Mobyseven: Best return to the entrance. We'll regroup and send in a rescue mission.

-Break Transmission-

Timestamp: 2100​

Architect: Donna step there, lad. Ye donna ken whatcha doin'!

T.A.M.: What? Who's there?

Architect: Jes' me, the old Architect. Step there an' you'll regret it, lad. This den has booby traps comin' out its arse.

T.A.M.: What are you doing down here?

Architect: I guard the sacred relics hidden in this bunker. The Gravy Papers.

T.A.M.: The Gravy Papers? I thought they were a myth!

Architect: Aye, seems what ye ken could nay fill a bucket, lad. Follow me to the dungeons, but fer Wallace's sake, watch out for the Swing Dangler!

T.A.M.: The 'Swing Dangler'? Is that some kind of booby trap?

Architect: Aye, lad! Watch yer head, feredssake!

//Signed off: T.A.M.

Architect: Ach. They ne'er listen to me.

-Break Transmission-

Timestamp: 2120​

Mobyseven: Alpha-Team report: Two casualties, missing, presumed dead. A rescue effort would likely result in more casualties, and is therefore advised against. Recommendation is to permanently lock Bunker 12A...how it continues to support life, let alone intelligent conversation, is beyond my understanding. Mobyseven, signing out.

//Signed off: Mobyseven

//Transmission Ends//​
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Hahahahaha, what a great post.
 
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