Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[SpitfireIX]

Whilst mansplaining is an aspect of sexism, it does not follow that a person - male or female - doing that is ipso facto a misogynist. That is the logical fallacy of syllogism. We have all inadvertently explained something to someone without being asked for it, when they already know. Whilst it is a breach of etiquette, it hardly indicates you are a misogynist, unless you are doing it boorishly out of bigoted reasoning.

Again, mansplaining carries a connotation of sexism, whether or not you care to admit it, and if you didn't intend to convey that, you should have chosen a different term.

So yes, asking someone not to mansplain is not something that should be heavily punished by the mods.

As I noted, that's not what happened. The post in question was in September, and the "heavy punishment" of which you speak was in November. You can look up both for yourself.

Eyewitness accounts in incidents where they are the ONLY witnesses to a catastrophic accident is not automatically 'unreliable' and has NOTHING to do with false memory syndrome (as your 'accident expert' tied to assert).

I managed to find this section of the thread, based on the date of the "mansplaining" post, and, wonder of wonders, that's not what happened. Short version: @MarkCorrigan (not @JayUtah, who is the expert on forensic engineering) asked you what happens if witnesses say they heard explosions, but the wreckage shows no evidence of explosives. When you were evasive, he pressed you, and then you accused him of attempting to "mansplain" psychology because you didn't want to answer the question.

So you are possibly indulging in 'mansplaining' here in claiming you know more than me (so report me).

You are a stereotypist in that you are stereotyping someone with different interests from yourself as a 'conspiracy theorist' because you are too lazy to bother to find out what it is they are interested in. It makes you appear pompous and bumptious because you actually do not have any authority over other people's choice of interests yet you really do believe you can go up to their face and call them names.

In an attempt to at least give this post a fig leaf of being on topic, I'll use the Knox case, even though the Estonia or even some conspiracy theory to which you don't subscribe would probably provide clearer examples.

You claim that Knox and Sollecito were let off due to Mafia influence on the Court of Cassation. You are asserting that a powerful, secretive organization has conspired to influence an event such that it occurred in a manner substantially different from how it is commonly understood to have occurred, and that a secret of great importance is being kept from the public.

Are we not both interested in the Knox case?

What other interest or interests of yours, specifically, do you feel I should know about that ought to lead me to believe you're not a conspiracy theorist?

Can you please explain, specifically, what interest or interests you feel I'm attempting to prevent you from pursuing?

 

[Vixen]

Which is exactly what you claim Sollecito did when he called 112! And please, don't claim he called them after the postales arrived. We've already shown that didn't happen.
My point was that there was NO NEED for Knox to stage a burglary or to lock the bedroom door.

LOL! It was dark so he couldn't lock the door! That wasn't your point earlier when you claimed Guede's shoeprint not facing the door is evidence he didn't lock it.
"assuming they knew what the key was for at all."
Riiiiiiiight. What keys would Kercher carry around with her? Front door, bedroom door... and her keys to her vacation cottage, her car, her boyfriend's door? LOL!!!

Don't tell lies. The police turned up at 12:30-ish. Sollecito rang his sister and then the Carabinieri at 12:54 - this is scientifically logged; it is not an opinion! - and he was skulking about in Knox' room when he did so, furtively. Why are you trying to persuade people they called the police first when it is a blatant lie?

 

[Vixen]

Of course, if she was guilty she wouldn't have been waiting for Filomena, she never would have called Filomena, and instead, she'd be in Gubbio. But you are correct in saying the Postal Police arrival was totally unexpected - they were waiting for the Carabinieri.

See above. Sollecito rang his sister in the Carabinieri to seek advice after the postal police turned up .

 

[Vixen]

Nov. 19 not 18.


Nor do I, except Vixen is claiming she mentioned his name to her father before it was in the media


Vixen is claiming Knox had knowledge of Guede being involved BEFORE it was in the media. I've proven that is not true by quoting and citing Mignini's revocation of the news blackout and ANSA's reporting of Guede on Nov. 19.
's

Oh really? So how come Guede's parent didn't know until the TV news at midday, 20 Nov 2007, and Curt Knox said in the police wiretap to his daughter that they had not yet said who the fourth person arrested was as of the time he visited at 9:00am. But his daughter knew well before midday! Well, well.

We all know Curt Knox and Edda Mellas had their eyes peeled on the news and their ear close to the ground, yet Curt had no news as of the time he visited Knox at circa 9:00am.


Clear now?





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[Vixen]

Someone will be along any time now to explain that was just a "typo" or "clerical error".

[Edit] No, sorry that was a bit unkind. I think you are more misguided than ill-intentioned.




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[Vixen]

Another example of you ignoring anything you can't address with a plausible, logical answer!

Stop trying to be a cute teenager.



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[Vixen]

Again, mansplaining carries a connotation of sexism, whether or not you care to admit it, and if you didn't intend to convey that, you should have chosen a different term.


As I noted, that's not what happened. The post in question was in September, and the "heavy punishment" of which you speak was in November. You can look up both for yourself.


I managed to find this section of the thread, based on the date of the "mansplaining" post, and, wonder of wonders, that's not what happened. Short version: @MarkCorrigan (not @JayUtah, who is the expert on forensic engineering) asked you what happens if witnesses say they heard explosions, but the wreckage shows no evidence of explosives. When you were evasive, he pressed you, and then you accused him of attempting to "mansplain" psychology because you didn't want to answer the question.





In an attempt to at least give this post a fig leaf of being on topic, I'll use the Knox case, even though the Estonia or even some conspiracy theory to which you don't subscribe would probably provide clearer examples.

You claim that Knox and Sollecito were let off due to Mafia influence on the Court of Cassation. You are asserting that a powerful, secretive organization has conspired to influence an event such that it occurred in a manner substantially different from how it is commonly understood to have occurred, and that a secret of great importance is being kept from the public.

Are we not both interested in the Knox case?

What other interest or interests of yours, specifically, do you feel I should know about that ought to lead me to believe you're not a conspiracy theorist?

Can you please explain, specifically, what interest or interests you feel I'm attempting to prevent you from pursuing?

Maybe that is your error pontificating on topics on which you have little to no familiarity. It is incredibly childish to claim you have all kinds of mates to back you up and cracking your knuckles as if that'll force me to 'admit' a lie or an error is true.

Yes, it is my view that the pair only got off because of shady outside influence. It is as plain as day. Knox even thanked Trump in her Netfilx doc.

Anyone who thinks Knox got a 28-year jail sentence, and Sollecito 25 'for no reason...except for a rogue prosecutor, Mignini' is living in CUCKOO!!!! cloud cuckooland. Or maybe like yourself they are misguided 'patriots' who think it is an insult on the USA to imagine one of theirs could do such a thing.




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[Vixen]

Of course, if she was guilty she wouldn't have been waiting for Filomena, she never would have called Filomena, and instead, she'd be in Gubbio. But you are correct in saying the Postal Police arrival was totally unexpected - they were waiting for the Carabinieri.

PS Of course Knox had to await Filomena's arrival, having told her her window was broken! Filomena had to ring Knox to find this out. Imagine not calling the police immediately seeing the front door swinging open and a window smashed; Knox claims at around 10:00am. Not switching on her phone (which had been switched off throughout the murder from 8:45pm the previous evening) until 12:07am next day, and nearly an hour later, still waiting for Filomena to turn up and do the 'finding of the body', whilst she and Sollecito pissed off to Gubbio, her wearing a pristine white skirt (no sign of any gory blood on her!). So she managed to ring her mother a few minutes before the door was smashed open yet relaxed enough to want to go on a day trip to see the town of animal-loving St. Francis of Asissi in Gubbio, having watched the charming Amelie the night before, whom all her friends had said she, Knox, was just like the sweet kind Amelie*. Yet anxious enough about Mez to ring home before the reveal. The cunning of Knox is just endless!


*And in the Netflix film she carries on this role-play acting, so fake, it is amazing anyone was taken in.




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[Numbers]

Oh really? So how come Guede's parent didn't know until the TV news at midday, 20 Nov 2007, and Curt Knox said in the police wiretap to his daughter that they had not yet said who the fourth person arrested was as of the time he visited at 9:00am. But his daughter knew well before midday! Well, well.

We all know Curt Knox and Edda Mellas had their eyes peeled on the news and their ear close to the ground, yet Curt had no news as of the time he visited Knox at circa 9:00am.


Clear now?

Please post a citation for the statement: Guede's parent didn't know until the TV news at midday, 20 Nov 2007.

This information leads to the question who is being referred to as "Guede's parent" because his natural father was, according to sources back in the Ivory Coast and his "adoptive" family had allegedly cut off ties. If this statement has any basis in an alleged fact with a citation, how frequently was this individual termed "Guede's parent" watching the TV news at the relevant time?

Here's summary information on Guede's family status:

Guede's father returned to Ivory Coast in 2004. Rudy drifted and was fed, clothed, and housed by an informal group of well-meaning households, until, when aged 17, he was adopted by a wealthy Perugian family. .... His adoptive family asked him to leave their home, in mid-2007.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher
I have left out the footnote reference numbers (superscripts) in the original Wikipedia text that I have quoted above.

Your statement obviously overlooks the possibility that the news of Guede's arrest, including his name, was broadcast prior to "Guede's parent" watching TV news. Do you have evidence from the TV schedules and contents of the TV news programs that supports your claim? Please provide citations if you have such evidence. Otherwise, one can safely assume "Guede's parent" simply didn't see the earlier news reporting the information.

 

[Vixen]

Please post a citation for the statement: Guede's parent didn't know until the TV news at midday, 20 Nov 2007.

This information leads to the question who is being referred to as "Guede's parent" because his natural father was, according to sources back in the Ivory Coast and his "adoptive" family had allegedly cut off ties. If this statement has any basis in an alleged fact with a citation, how frequently was this individual termed "Guede's parent" watching the TV news at the relevant time?

Here's summary information on Guede's family status:


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher
I have left out the footnote reference numbers (superscripts) in the original Wikipedia text that I have quoted above.

Your statement obviously overlooks the possibility that the news of Guede's arrest, including his name, was broadcast prior to "Guede's parent" watching TV news. Do you have evidence from the TV schedules and contents of the TV news programs that supports your claim? Please provide citations if you have such evidence. Otherwise, one can safely assume "Guede's parent" simply didn't see the earlier news reporting the information.

Here are the citations, excerpts from John Follain, Death in Perugia:

20 November 2007
At 6 a.m., as the Intercity 2021 heading south from Hamburg sped along the river Rhine between Koblenz and Mainz, a ticket inspector asked Rudy for his ticket. Rudy didn't have one and and only had four euros (just over three pounds) on him so the guard detained him. A routine check revealed an international arrest warrant had been issued, and he was taken to a prison in Koblenz.

<snip>

←
Rudy's long-estranged father, Roger, found out about his son's arrest watching the TV news that lunchtime, and immediately burst into tears. 'Rudy is a very gentle, good-hearted boy; he loved everybody and he loved to have fun,' Roger said. 'I love him as a son.' Did he feel at all to blame after allegedly abandoning Rudy when he was sixteen? 'No, no, I don't feel guilty because he was taken from me and given to another family.' His son's arrest was just racism: 'They found a first black man, then they had to let him go, so now they've grabbed another one.'

<snip>

Amanda's father sounded an optimistic note as he greeted her in the visiting room. Curt said he was hopeful she would get out of prison soon, because investigators were seeking a suspect he called 'the fourth man' - Curt didn't yet know that Rudy had been arrested three hours earlier.

So the pair talked about the 'fourth man' which AK had discussed with her solicitor, Luca Ghirga.

Amanda interrupted once more: 'Oh my God! What a bastard! [re the 'fourth man]
'I don't know... I don't know who it is.'
'I know, I know I mean .. I'll have met him, but it's pretty strange that... him just there, because I never invited him to the house before,' Amanda said.
Asked about her latest meeting with the lawyer Ghirga, Amanda said they had talked about 'the knife with Meredith's DNA' - she made no mention of her own DNA on it. 'I don't understand how Meredith's DNA can be on it because I never took it to my house for anything so it's a mistake or Raffaele brought it home... but I think that can't be either, because he was with me in the house so there must be a mistake... and [Ghirga] told me: OK, we'll say it was a mistake.'
Amanda continued: 'And then [Ghirga] asked me at what level I know this other man this Rudy. Is that his name, Rudy?'
Curt replied no one had said anything yet about his name.
Amanda told him the TV had given his name.

Make of that what you will.

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[TruthCalls]

PS Of course Knox had to await Filomena's arrival, having told her her window was broken! Filomena had to ring Knox to find this out. Imagine not calling the police immediately seeing the front door swinging open and a window smashed; Knox claims at around 10:00am. Not switching on her phone (which had been switched off throughout the murder from 8:45pm the previous evening) until 12:07am next day, and nearly an hour later, still waiting for Filomena to turn up and do the 'finding of the body', whilst she and Sollecito pissed off to Gubbio, her wearing a pristine white skirt (no sign of any gory blood on her!). So she managed to ring her mother a few minutes before the door was smashed open yet relaxed enough to want to go on a day trip to see the town of animal-loving St. Francis of Asissi in Gubbio, having watched the charming Amelie the night before, whom all her friends had said she, Knox, was just like the sweet kind Amelie*. Yet anxious enough about Mez to ring home before the reveal. The cunning of Knox is just endless!


*And in the Netflix film she carries on this role-play acting, so fake, it is amazing anyone was taken in.

And she called Filomena and told her of the broken window why? This is the point - they wouldn't have called anyone if they were guilty, they would have taken off for Gubbio and waited for others to discover the murder.

The rest of your post is a series of baseless claims, false statements and childish drivel. I assume you think you're being clever, but you're not.

 

[SpitfireIX]

You misunderstand. Calunnia as charged by the Italian State against Knox is a criminal offence, and thus committed against the State. In Italy, and Europe in general, although not in the UK, the victim of a crime can bring a civil action at the same time.

That's why I asked whether this was a civil or a criminal judgment (possibly someone answered my question and I missed it). I knew that there had been some sort of simultaneous civil trial or trials; I've referenced simultaneous civil trials as one of the unfair aspects of the Italian legal system. But I wasn't aware of the results.

 

[Numbers]

Here are the citations, excerpts from John Follain, Death in Perugia:



<snip>


<snip>



So the pair talked about the 'fourth man' which AK had discussed with her solicitor, Luca Ghirga.



Make of that what you will.t

It's a big fat nothing-burger.
It begins with Folian's claim that Guede had been stopped and questioned on a German train on 20 November 2007.

Since Mignini had ordered on 19 November 2007 cancellation of the order to prevent publication of Guede's photo and name - in the context of his arrest for involvement in the murder/rape of Kercher, Follian's information as published is incorrect, and thus your previous post is also false.

If "Roger" is meant to be Guede's Ivorian natural father, where was he when he saw/heard the news on TV? In Italy or the Ivory Coast or elsewhere?

 

[TruthCalls]

That's why I asked whether this was a civil or a criminal judgment (possibly someone answered my question and I missed it). I knew that there had been some sort of simultaneous civil trial or trials; I've referenced simultaneous civil trials as one of the unfair aspects of the Italian legal system. But I wasn't aware of the results.

Except the calunnia charge was civil, not criminal.

 

[SpitfireIX]

It was a throwaway comment said in jest about Altieri's cut throat gesture, which he claimed meant 'Mez had her throat slit'.

No. You have on several occasions claimed that people are disrespecting Kercher for various (invariably bogus) reasons, and now you're trying to tell us that you were making a joke about someone's indicating that she'd had her throat slit?

As it is a common reference it needs no further explanation, at least not in England.

[citation needed]

 

[Vixen]

And she called Filomena and told her of the broken window why? This is the point - they wouldn't have called anyone if they were guilty, they would have taken off for Gubbio and waited for others to discover the murder.

The rest of your post is a series of baseless claims, false statements and childish drivel. I assume you think you're being clever, but you're not.

That is incorrect. Knox called Filomena to tell her she could not get through to Meredith. AK had been up since about 5:00am. She had gone to the house with door swinging open and smashed window at about 10:00 (to fetch a mop, she claims). She has a shower without turning on the heating or taking in a towel in with her; dresses in the semi-dark without her table lamp (which was on the floor of Mez' room). Then, having gone back to Sollecito's apartment - he had only just got up, and she claims she needed the mop to wipe something up in his kitchen - after a leisurely hour or so, she told him about what she had found at the cottage, Mez' door being locked, etc. No urgency. The pair claimed they went round, banged on Mez' door and tried to peer into her window via the terrazzo at the back.


She then made a couple of quick calls to each of Mez' phones when she finally switched on her phone at 12:07pm, after having been switched off from 8:45pm, the night before, one call literally just a few seconds of ringing, with zero chance of anyone being able to answer it in that time. She then called Filomena, telling her she was worried about Mez. Filomena was alarmed and told her to ring back as to what was going on. AK did not call back. Filomena rang HER - about 12:24 - and was told her window was broken. Filomena told her to call the police. No police had yet been called! Filomena - unlike AK - was so concerned, she jumped in the car with boyfriend, Marco, and his sister iirc, Paola Grande and her boyfriend, Luca Altieri. They were at some bank holiday festival but sped back to the cottage.

The postal police arrived at the cottage at circa 12:30pm to return Mez' discovered Italian phone in some garden, which they traced to Filomena. Battistelli said the pair were sitting outside canoodling and seemed very surprised to see him. So then Filomena, Paolo, Marco and Luca turned up and they all went inside. Inside Knox' room Sollecito rang his sister at circa 12:54 and then the Carabinieri (who arrived about half an hour later). He as probably in Knox' room as he told the operator, nothing has been taken.

At about 12:57 - minutes before Altieri bashed down the door - AK rang her mother n the USA 4:00am PNW time.

So, from only switching on her phone at 12:07 and intending to piss off to Gubbio for the day, leaving Filomena to find the body, suddenly she needs to call Mom at circa 12:57 or so, yet she had no idea there was anything to worry about such that she had spent a leisurely seven hours with her phone switched off since waking up at five, two of them AFTER she found the door wide open and blood all over the place and a third-party stinky mess in the loo.

So no, she was clearly intending someone else to find the body, whilst she and Sollecito were fifty miles away. Why? For the simple reason it was she who had removed Mez' phones so that she couldn't call for help and locked the door, so as to deal with the issue of how come she didn't report it,


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[Vixen]

Except the calunnia charge was civil, not criminal.

Wrong: it was a CRIMINAL offence: a felony. As is the protocol in Europe, it was also a civil offence as Lumumba filed a claim as a victim of her crime.

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[Vixen]

No. You have on several occasions claimed that people are disrespecting Kercher for various (invariably bogus) reasons, and now you're trying to tell us that you were making a joke about someone's indicating that she'd had her throat slit?


[citation needed]

No not a joke, a common reference.

So I saw a post today on a Masonic Facebook group about a way to present yourself as a Mason in court to a judge who, if a Mason, would recognize it and supposedly let you off.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freemasonry/comments/4b1rgd/masonic_court_sign

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[TruthCalls]

That is incorrect. Knox called Filomena to tell her she could not get through to Meredith. AK had been up since about 5:00am. She had gone to the house with door swinging open and smashed window at about 10:00 (to fetch a mop, she claims). She has a shower without turning on the heating or taking in a towel in with her; dresses in the semi-dark without her table lamp (which was on the floor of Mez' room). Then, having gone back to Sollecito's apartment - he had only just got up, and she claims she needed the mop to wipe something up in his kitchen - after a leisurely hour or so, she told him about what she had found at the cottage, Mez' door being locked, etc. No urgency. The pair claimed they went round, banged on Mez' door and tried to peer into her window via the terrazzo at the back.


She then made a couple of quick calls to each of Mez' phones when she finally switched on her phone at 12:07pm, after having been switched off from 8:45pm, the night before, one call literally just a few seconds of ringing, with zero chance of anyone being able to answer it in that time. She then called Filomena, telling her she was worried about Mez. Filomena was alarmed and told her to ring back as to what was going on. AK did not call back. Filomena rang HER - about 12:24 - and was told her window was broken. Filomena told her to call the police. No police had yet been called! Filomena - unlike AK - was so concerned, she jumped in the car with boyfriend, Marco, and his sister iirc, Paola Grande and her boyfriend, Luca Altieri. They were at some bank holiday festival but sped back to the cottage.

The postal police arrived at the cottage at circa 12:30pm to return Mez' discovered Italian phone in some garden, which they traced to Filomena. Battistelli said the pair were sitting outside canoodling and seemed very surprised to see him. So then Filomena, Paolo, Marco and Luca turned up and they all went inside. Inside Knox' room Sollecito rang his sister at circa 12:54 and then the Carabinieri (who arrived about half an hour later). He as probably in Knox' room as he told the operator, nothing has been taken.

At about 12:57 - minutes before Altieri bashed down the door - AK rang her mother n the USA 4:00am PNW time.

So, from only switching on her phone at 12:07 and intending to piss off to Gubbio for the day, leaving Filomena to find the body, suddenly she needs to call Mom at circa 12:57 or so, yet she had no idea there was anything to worry about such that she had spent a leisurely seven hours with her phone switched off since waking up at five, two of them AFTER she found the door wide open and blood all over the place and a third-party stinky mess in the loo.

So no, she was clearly intended someone else to find the body. Why? For the simple reason it was she who had removed Mez' phones so that she couldn't call for help and locked the door, so as to deal with the issue of how come she didn't report it,


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I will ask one more time... WHY call anyone? WHY even be at the cottage? WHY not just go to Gubbio.

 

[Vixen]

I will ask one more time... WHY call anyone? WHY even be at the cottage? WHY not just go to Gubbio.

Because she had to remove the sodding wet mop!!!! The pair probably replaced the mop with a new one and disposed of the one used to clean up the cottage during that two hour lull before she switched her phone back on.

She had to have an explanation as to why she was even there at the cottage that morning after the murder the night before.

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