Explorer
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,516
The brain is a complex organ, and we know today that it can create apparent fabricated external experiences, including seeing entities, against a background of not what we generally accept as reality. The experience is real to the beholder. My mother-in-law described all sorts of people in her care home room that were not really there, and was quite happy with it, knowing it was not real but it gave her some extra company during her latter days, when she could even have a conversational exchange with them.
It can be argued, as I sure it has been on here before, that reality is only an interpretation consensus of the outside world through our five senses, and that "reality" can be modified and manipulated by the brain wittingly and unwittingly, in a variety of ways and techniques. Sincere people who see things, ghosts and the like, are genuinely seeing them, but they are only a synthetic add on to the reality they usually experience. We cannot question their reality, only to say, well that's fine, but it is different to the next person's own reality at any given time.
It can be argued, as I sure it has been on here before, that reality is only an interpretation consensus of the outside world through our five senses, and that "reality" can be modified and manipulated by the brain wittingly and unwittingly, in a variety of ways and techniques. Sincere people who see things, ghosts and the like, are genuinely seeing them, but they are only a synthetic add on to the reality they usually experience. We cannot question their reality, only to say, well that's fine, but it is different to the next person's own reality at any given time.
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
OK, but have you ever had a stomach ache? This, so we are told, is a sure-fire sign of the presence of spirits.
PookieBear
Banned
I don’t want to play psychiatrist here but your MIL must have had the early signs of dementia! It’s that prosaic!
I live in a home where a terrible tragedy and injustice occurred. If any home could be haunted, it is this one. And yet, no one here has seen anything even remotely resembling “a ghostly visitation.” No communications whatsoever.
My husband’s mother is really superstitious- she believes in Bigfoot and reincarnations and UFOs- and even she doesn’t claim to have seen the shooting victims’ ghosts!
I’ll add another thing. America and Canada both genocided their natives, as did Australia and Brazil and Japan.
Former settler colonies should be haunted end to end by the spirits of the indigenous. An entire continent was liquidated. And yet I have been to Australia and I couldn’t see anything supernatural in the least. The only spirits you might see is the alcohol!
I live in a home where a terrible tragedy and injustice occurred. If any home could be haunted, it is this one. And yet, no one here has seen anything even remotely resembling “a ghostly visitation.” No communications whatsoever.
My husband’s mother is really superstitious- she believes in Bigfoot and reincarnations and UFOs- and even she doesn’t claim to have seen the shooting victims’ ghosts!
I’ll add another thing. America and Canada both genocided their natives, as did Australia and Brazil and Japan.
Former settler colonies should be haunted end to end by the spirits of the indigenous. An entire continent was liquidated. And yet I have been to Australia and I couldn’t see anything supernatural in the least. The only spirits you might see is the alcohol!
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
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The map is not the territory. In other words our perceptions are not reality and do not alter reality. Somone has the classic Dick quote in their signature: Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
The fact that the shade of grey labelled A and B is perceived by humans to be different does not make them different:
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
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I'm always impressed by this illusion. I literally just got a post-it note and cut squares out of it then stuck it to my monitor to prove to myself that A and B are the same, but as soon as I peel it off I cannot convince myself it's true.
Explorer
Graduate Poster
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Sorry, but I should have been clearer in the highlighted part of my post that you quoted. I was trying to explain, but not very well, that the perception of reality by the observer can be modified and manipulated by the brain, not actual reality itself. This in turn explains why apparently many sincere honest people who describe their experiences, genuinely believe that what they saw was indeed real, at least for them. This for me is a very important difference, and I thought that my mother-in-law anecdote would be sufficient to get my meaning across.
Just to muddy the waters, and as I expect that you are already well aware, some physicists think reality at quantum level is whatever the observer wants it to be. Personally, I don't understand quantum physics, it took me fifty years to understand relativity.
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novaphile
Quester of Doglets
I'd like to take this further and suggest that none of us live in reality.
We inhabit a mental model of the world and it is not possible for us to interact with the world without using that mental model.
That's just how our brains work.
i.e. we don't see with our eyes, we see with our brains.
Fortunately, for most of us, the physical world matches the mental model created in our brain and the model works very well for us.
(For others, the mental model often fails and includes things that aren't there.)
I'm pretty sure everyone here would have experienced the sudden shock where physical reality doesn't match our mental model.
Examples from me:
Step onto/lean on a shadow which is actually a hole or gap.
Lean on a fence post that was actually a bird (Tawny frogmouth)
Pick up a stick that was actually a snake (Eastern Brown, not sure which one of us was more upset!)
Bright blue book that became red when I switched the light on.
I've heard that the first time a person experiences a severe earthquake, it can be incredibly confusing/distressing, because people's mental models don't include everything jumping up and down.
Axxman300
Philosopher
That a bit of an over-statement. No, we don't see with our brains. Yes, all of us perceive the world slightly different in some ways. Most of us can pick Brad Pitt out of a photo lineup, though. And while shadows in the night can hide all sorts of disasters, the fact is that oncoming freight train IS reality, and it's a bad idea to stand in the middle of the tracks. The fact is if you believe in ghosts you will think you've seen one, or had an experience with one. People who do not believe in ghosts never see or report them. It's that simple. It's funny until some kid is murdered during an exorcism because mom and dad are "believers".
Cat Not Included
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2016
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- 477
There are many things that humans don't fully understand. There are many things I'm sure science will discover in the future. However, humans have done some really amazing bits of discovering things. Humans figured out how to use a certain kind of mold to stop infections. We've managed to get images and details of celestial objects trillions and trillions of miles away. We've figured out how to get a good analysis of what animals live in an area by analyzing fish poop. We figured out neutrinos exist despite interacting so little with anything that they can pass clear through the planet, and have made machines to detect them. Meteors are unpredictable and last for seconds, yet we've got plenty of photos of them.
Then we've got "hauntings", which are supposed reoccurring, are usually in accessible places, and are detectable by unaided human sense...but NOBODY has ever been able to get solid evidence of them or come up with a way of studying them?
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
There is plenty of evidence that reveals that we don't "see" reality, we "see" a mental model of reality, which is usually pretty accurate. It lags a couple of milliseconds behind reality, for example. But the point is that the model can be wrong. We "see" something which in reality is a sweater hung over the back of a chair, but which our brain models as a hunched figure. Pareidolia is another example of this. That piece of cheese toast doesn't really have a face on it, but once you've seen the face, you can't unsee it.
Axxman300
Philosopher
I get the point. It's just poorly stated. A better explanation is those times you misplace your keys, or your wallet. We are creatures of habit, and when we break from routine over a mundane act there is a risk of overreacting the moment we can't find that thing. We've all been there, clock's ticking, we're late, and our key ring is "gone". Suddenly your home becomes an alien environment as you retrace your steps, counter tops, and shelves are suddenly foreign until you recover your lost item. And during the entirety of your search there is a battle inside your head that becomes more irrational the longer the search goes on. You begin opening drawers you haven't touched in months, you enter rooms that you didn't go into while you had your key ring. You ask family if they've seen your keys, and a few people jump to accusing those family members of taking them. The longer it takes to find your missing keys the greater the mental turmoil, and the stronger the irrational thinking becomes. Suddenly your perceived reality has been altered.
...and then you find your key ring. One of two things happens; as you pick them up all the memories of you placing them in that location flood back, and you're embarrassed. Or you have no idea why you left your key ring where you found it.
The variations in which we all slightly perceive our world are real, but not so great as to doubt reality. I've never been to New York, but I'm certain the Empire State Building is exactly where the maps show it to be. Where the perception comes into play is usually things like size. I wonder how many tourists first see the Empire State Building, or the Eifel Tower, and say they though both would be bigger? Wide-angle lenses shape perceptions. When I went to Dealey Plaza in Dallas, TX, I was shocked at how small it is compared to how it appears on film.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
The worst case, when finding your keys, is that they are where you expected them to be, the place that you checked 75 times during your searching.
I've experienced that a couple of times, and have found the way past it, is to search by touch.
My best guess? Psychological blindness caused by social anxiety.
I've experienced that a couple of times, and have found the way past it, is to search by touch.
My best guess? Psychological blindness caused by social anxiety.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I just want to put on the record that my home has never seemed alien to me, when looking for a misplaced item. Totally unrelatable.
I did, however, once sincerely believe I was witnessing the Devil. It was a rather unusual setting, the lighting was unfamiliar, and I was emotionally distraught. The hallucination lasted maybe a second, and then my mind made proper sense of what I was seeing.
But for that one second...
I did, however, once sincerely believe I was witnessing the Devil. It was a rather unusual setting, the lighting was unfamiliar, and I was emotionally distraught. The hallucination lasted maybe a second, and then my mind made proper sense of what I was seeing.
But for that one second...
Explorer
Graduate Poster
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- Messages
- 1,516
From personal experience of my own brain I can tell you it is perfectly possible for it to create original images that I can actually "see". When I close my eyes and have essentially a blank dark canvas in front of me, on occasions I start seeing a jumble of random shapes and patterns forming. Suddenly a perfect monotone image of an animal or face appears that I can actually see for a few seconds and describe to myself. It sometimes morphs into something else, not recognisable, but nevertheless, it is an interesting experience. Does it have any value? Well perhaps only that if these self created images can be overlaid on to the reality of the outside world would it have any bearing on this thread. So far, this hasn't yet happened for me.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
I had an interesting on the other day, I was dog walking in a quiet village (one road, no pavements, BIG front gardens) when I distinctly felt someone grab my arm, not hard, but it was unignorable and I spun around to see no-one in sight and no possible place anyone could have hidden.
What had actually happened is I got a new jacket for Christmas with pockets on the shoulders and put a power pack/hand warmer in one of them, promptly forgot about it. The power pack had fallen over in the pocket making the sleeve pull tight around my arm for a moment.
For me it's a nice anecdote about how a seemingly strange experience had a completely mundane exploration, but had I the right mindset (and like a lot here I did once have such a mindset for a while), I could have persuaded myself that the powerpack hadn't caused it, it didn't feel like a powerpack falling over, maybe it fell over weeks ago, no need to even mention it when recounting the experience, and given enough retellings, thanks to how memory works, "What powerpack?" .
What had actually happened is I got a new jacket for Christmas with pockets on the shoulders and put a power pack/hand warmer in one of them, promptly forgot about it. The power pack had fallen over in the pocket making the sleeve pull tight around my arm for a moment.
For me it's a nice anecdote about how a seemingly strange experience had a completely mundane exploration, but had I the right mindset (and like a lot here I did once have such a mindset for a while), I could have persuaded myself that the powerpack hadn't caused it, it didn't feel like a powerpack falling over, maybe it fell over weeks ago, no need to even mention it when recounting the experience, and given enough retellings, thanks to how memory works, "What powerpack?" .
We had an absolute loon on here in the early days and he would not accept that it was an optical illusion - someone did a quick video of square B moving to square A and he still wouldn't have it.