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Merged Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care

(...) Your argument is that Letby must be innocent because you think the evidence against her is flawed.
I think his argument is that he is not convinced of her guilt, not that she must be innocent.
(...) Much has been made of the supposed flawed nature of the statistical evidence against Letby, however there is ZERO doubt that babies were murdered, ZERO - they did NOT die of natural causes. Insulin overdoses don't happen by themselves, air bubbles don't get into the bloodstream by accident. (...) There was only one nurse who was on duty for every single one of these occasions, and that was Letby. Yes, a couple of other babies did die during that period, and Letby was not present for those, but on those occasions, the babies were very ill, and the cause of death was known. However, Letby was the only nurse on duty for all of the babies that died after a sudden collapse when they had previously been healthy and on a path to recovery. And yes, there was one charged incident where a baby died and Letby had not been on duty at the time of death (but had been the day before).
This is one of the facts that is not actually clear. I haven't yet seen it backed up as far as exactly when she would have had access to that baby.

In general, if all the facts actually are as the folks that are convinced of her guilt say, I'd be convinced too. But, the prosecution did a terrible job of demonstrating that the ones that would condemn Letby are true.

My opinion on this case is still that it looks incredibly suspicious but I haven't yet seen what makes it a slam dunk.
 
Fair enough. You are acknowledging that the babies didn't die because of the claimed poor conditions at the hospital rather than being murdered by Letby (or highly unlikely, some other staff member). That's progress... I guess!

So I'll answer your question. Your argument is that Letby must be innocent because you think the evidence against her is flawed (various causes of death, the fact that she is the only staff member who was present for all the murders etc, all flawed).

Much has been made of the supposed flawed nature of the statistical evidence against Letby, however there is ZERO doubt that babies were murdered, ZERO - they did NOT die of natural causes. Insulin overdoses don't happen by themselves, air bubbles don't get into the bloodstream by accident. Breathing tubes might occasionally get dislodged, but they don't cause bleeding from the mouth from being mishandled by accident on a regular basis. There was only one nurse who was on duty for every single one of these occasions, and that was Letby. Yes, a couple of other babies did die during that period, and Letby was not present for those, but on those occasions, the babies were very ill, and the cause of death was known. However, Letby was the only nurse on duty for all of the babies that died after a sudden collapse when they had previously been healthy and on a path to recovery. And yes, there was one charged incident where a baby died and Letby had not been on duty at the time of death (but had been the day before). That doesn't mean she wasn't involved. If you shoot someone on Monday, but they die from their wounds on Wednesday, you can't claim innocence because you were somewhere else on Wednesday.
Your reading comprehension is pretty poor if you think what I wrote is acknowledging that the babies didn't die because of the claimed poor conditions. I'm not claiming that they did, but I didn't acknowledge that they didn't. If that's too subtle or complicated for you, I can't help you.

The doubt is over the causes of death, where you (and, to be fair, the jury) have decided there is no doubt.

If you can't even understand the arguments, it will be hard for you to argue against them - as you've just demonstrated.

(Also, the problem with Baby C is that the baby was attacked on Monday, but Letby wasn't on duty until Wednesday, not the other way round.)
 
I think his argument is that he is not convinced of her guilt, not that she must be innocent.

This is hedge-betting equivocation. Either she killed babies (in which case she is guilty) or she didn't (in which case she is innocent)

This is one of the facts that is not actually clear. I haven't yet seen it backed up as far as exactly when she would have had access to that baby.

In general, if all the facts actually are as the folks that are convinced of her guilt say, I'd be convinced too. But, the prosecution did a terrible job of demonstrating that the ones that would condemn Letby are true.

My opinion on this case is still that it looks incredibly suspicious
but I haven't yet seen what makes it a slam dunk.
Well, I have... insulin overdose/poisoning and air injected into the bloodstream. Those don't happen all by themselves - someone has to inject the victim. Air into the bloodstream has to be injected directly into the body, insulin can be either directly injected into the body, or into an IV bag if one is present.

Even if you accept the other attacks and deaths to be a series of accidents and misfortunes - these four attacks (one of which led to the death of a baby, another left a baby with permanent brain damage) cannot be explained away by poor conditions or sewage leaks at CCH, or any of the other specious garbage the innocence mob use as straws to clutch at. Injecting air and/or insulin are deliberate acts. These four attacks are the smoking gun.
 
Your reading comprehension is pretty poor if you think what I wrote is acknowledging that the babies didn't die because of the claimed poor conditions. I'm not claiming that they did, but I didn't acknowledge that they didn't. If that's too subtle or complicated for you, I can't help you.

The doubt is over the causes of death, where you (and, to be fair, the jury) have decided there is no doubt.

If you can't even understand the arguments, it will be hard for you to argue against them - as you've just demonstrated.

(Also, the problem with Baby C is that the baby was attacked on Monday, but Letby wasn't on duty until Wednesday, not the other way round.)
There doesn't have to be 'no doubt'. The criteria is for a jury of your peers to unanimously or by a significant majority if they cannot come to a unanimous decision after weeks of debating to be 'sure' that the case is proven. The criteria never was 100% proof, because serial killers are adept at covering their tracks and rarely confess. If you do not accept the jury's verdict in the fifteen cases each tried separately, but with 14 with the same jurors, that is for you to come to terms with.
 
I think his argument is that he is not convinced of her guilt, not that she must be innocent.

This is one of the facts that is not actually clear. I haven't yet seen it backed up as far as exactly when she would have had access to that baby.

In general, if all the facts actually are as the folks that are convinced of her guilt say, I'd be convinced too. But, the prosecution did a terrible job of demonstrating that the ones that would condemn Letby are true.

My opinion on this case is still that it looks incredibly suspicious but I haven't yet seen what makes it a slam dunk.
There doesn't have to be a 'slam dunk'.
 
Interesting backstory here of how Letby's parents are coping. It is an archived article, so not hidden behind the usual paywall.

"For the inquiry has heard that when Letby, now 34, was removed from the neo-natal unit and placed on clerical duties, her father, a retired furniture shop manager, made repeated 'agitated' calls to the hospital, threatened the chief executive saying he would put a gun to his head, and demanded doctors accusing his daughter of harming patients be disciplined and sacked."

Apple hasn't fallen far from the tree then!
 
"For the inquiry has heard that when Letby, now 34, was removed from the neo-natal unit and placed on clerical duties, her father, a retired furniture shop manager, made repeated 'agitated' calls to the hospital, threatened the chief executive saying he would put a gun to his head, and demanded doctors accusing his daughter of harming patients be disciplined and sacked."

Apple hasn't fallen far from the tree then!

"Gun to the head" was Tony Chambers (ex-NHS Trust top guy at CoCH) comment at the Thirwall Inquiry. I took it to mean figuratively but you never know, as Chambers also remarked that even when Jonathan Letby wasn't there he 'felt his presence'. Any psychologist looking at Letby will look at her early childhood and yes, it is plain to see she has an overbearing father so no surprise she herself thought she could go through life bullying people less powerful than herself (little babies). It's astonishing really, she had all the bosses covering her back for almost two years; she won her grievance and told everybody via email she was 'exonerated'* and to treat her with sensitivity when she returned on the unit, of which she told Drs. Brearey and Jayaram, "I am returning whether you like it or not!"

Letby even shouted abuse at a nurse who called a passing doctor for help in a medical emergency of a baby under Letby's care.

*Executive Chief of Nursing Alison Kelly, refused to make any note of the doctors concerns nor registered them as a safeguarding or patient risk to safety at any point until Baby P died, over a year later, yet Kelly had no problems at all in setting up a grievance process for Letby a couple of months after (so she did know corporate protocol in dealing with complaints after all). Kelly kept quiet about the complaints against Letby even from the CQC and the RSPCH inspectors, so when they came around to inspect the place they had no idea there were specific issues about a specific nurse. Letby's only defence at trial apart from trying to imply infection from sewage overflow in the unit sink - which inspectors said was not a factor in the babies' deaths - was that she was being bullied, spearheaded by Drs. Brearey and Jayaram, so she clearly expected the jury to kowtow to her insistence she was innocent, as she was so used to being pandered to. No wonder it was a shock to her to be found out and caught at last. Not before a large amount of unnecessary deaths and permanent injuries to new born babies, though.
 

Lucy Letby’s legal team is set to reveal fresh evidence that “significantly undermines” her convictions, her barrister said in a statement released on Saturday.
The former neonatal nurse is serving life imprisonment for the murders of seven infants and the attempted murders of seven others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between 2015 and 2016.

But since the convictions, dozens of statisticians, scientists, doctors and nurses have come forward to challenge the evidence presented to the jury.

Mark McDonald, Letby’s new barrister, has issued a press notice announcing that the team will disclose “fresh developments on the case” on Monday afternoon.
 

Lucy Letby’s legal team is set to reveal fresh evidence that “significantly undermines” her convictions, her barrister said in a statement released on Saturday.
The former neonatal nurse is serving life imprisonment for the murders of seven infants and the attempted murders of seven others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between 2015 and 2016.

But since the convictions, dozens of statisticians, scientists, doctors and nurses have come forward to challenge the evidence presented to the jury.

Mark McDonald, Letby’s new barrister, has issued a press notice announcing that the team will disclose “fresh developments on the case” on Monday afternoon.


Shouldn't Mr. McDonald be addressing his 'fresh evidence' to the CCR review body? No point addressing Letby's fan base.

Nice to see Peter Hitchens recently put in his place by the Police.
 
Shouldn't Mr. McDonald be addressing his 'fresh evidence' to the CCR review body? No point addressing Letby's fan base.
Nice to see Peter Hitchens recently put in his place by the Police.
Why is it an either or?

And it's the CCRC - Criminal Cases Review Commission.

Given how bad the CCRC is - it's almost criminal mistakes in the past - if I had fresh evidence in a case I wouldn't rely on the CCRC doing the correct thing, I'd use a campaign of public pressure as well and make it as public as possible.
 
Why is it an either or?

And it's the CCRC - Criminal Cases Review Commission.

Given how bad the CCRC is - it's almost criminal mistakes in the past - if I had fresh evidence in a case I wouldn't rely on the CCRC doing the correct thing, I'd use a campaign of public pressure as well and make it as public as possible.


Here's a copy of the details, for anyone who wants to turn up:

1734267725075.png
 
Police hit back at Peter Hitchens and the DAILY MAIL/MAIL ON SUNDAY's ridiculous conspiracy theories about police trying to manipulate the press. The National Police Cheif's Council debunks Hitchens' claims of being gagged because of police bias.


Six myths about police media briefings busted​


Two consecutive Sunday national newspaper columns later, and the police communications family want to set the record straight.
Our opinion is that the columnist has twice misled Mail on Sunday readers about the purpose of media briefings.

The priority of policing is to keep the public feeling and being safe. It is also our duty to make sure we are being open and informing the public, and one way that we do this is via the media.

Often investigations, particularly when dealing with the broader criminal justice system, can be complicated. Often there is a need to make sure that journalists are informed so that they can ensure their reporting is balanced, accurate, and contemporaneous.

The difficulty in the relationship between policing and the media has been well documented, and that’s why the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) and College of Policing are working with some of the most highly trained and professional crime journalists to ensure we improve the relationship. At a time when misinformation and disinformation can spread so quickly online, and where ‘influencers’ can freely present inaccuracies as facts, we still believe traditional media is a valuable channel via which we can keep the public well-informed and safe.

We completely appreciate that people are entitled to their opinion, but when it is inaccurate, we are entitled to set the record straight.

Let’s bust some myths.


 
How Lucy Letby's police caution on arrest worked against her in court.

First, let's recap what a police caution is:

What is a police caution?

The police caution is a statement delivered by a police officer to a suspect who is under arrest or being interviewed as a voluntary attendee. The caution wording is standardized and typically reads:

"You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

The purpose of the police caution is to ensure that the suspect understands their legal rights and the potential consequences of their actions.What are the legal rights of a suspect?

Upon arrest, a suspect has several legal rights, including:

  • The right to remain silent: A suspect has the right to remain silent and not incriminate themselves. They do not have to answer any questions or make any statements if they do not want to.
  • The right to legal representation: A suspect has the right to have a solicitor present during questioning or to consult with a solicitor before answering any questions.
  • The right to medical attention: A suspect has the right to medical attention if they need it.
  • The right to inform someone: A suspect has the right to inform someone of their arrest and whereabouts.

What are the consequences of ignoring the police caution?

If a suspect ignores the police caution and provides false information to the police, or fails to mention anything which they later rely on in court, it may harm their defence. This is because their credibility may be called into question, and their defence may be weakened, as they failed to disclose relevant information or provide truthful answers during the investigation.

Additionally, any statements made by the suspect may be admissible as evidence in court, which can be used against them in a prosecution.
Police Station Agent

Of course, evidence in court has to be looked at as a whole. One or two single pieces of evidence does not of itself provide definitive proof, unless it involves the defendant being caught red-handed on camera.

In Letby's case there are two significant instances when the police caution at the station after she was arrested caught her out in the witness box with regards to the caution: "You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

In one instance, Prosecutor Nicholas Johnson KC for Rex, cross-examined Letby on her scribbled post-it note, as follows:

1734276166975.png

He asked her why she wrote, 'I am evil, I did this' and 'I killed them on purpose', as well as a comment that she was never going to marry or have children, unless it was a confession. Letby responded under oath that it was because she was 'completely isolated' having been removed from the neonatal ward (this would have been shortly after the death of the final baby, triplet Baby P) and redeployed in the Risk and Safety Department, in a desk job for over a year until she was arrested. Letby testified and as per her police statements that she was only allowed to speak to Dr. A (the married doctor she was in a close relationship with) and two friends from the unit. Mr. Johnson KC, then showed the jury photo after photo of Letby socialising three or four times a week with a large crowd of her nursing friends looking happy and carefree. Letby confirmed she went to salsa, 'Yes', Had a house, 'yes', Had a car. 'Yes'. Had a boyfriend'. 'Yes'. So straight away the court heard the blatant lie that Letby was 'isolated'.

Of course, it is human to remember something at one point in time differently to how one might remember it another time. But let's just recap what became apparent at the more recent Thirlwall Inquiry. From the testimony (under statutory conditions) Alison Kelly, Executive Chief of Nursing, admitted that for over a year (2015 - 2016) since the group of consultants specifically named Letby as being of concern in sudden and unexpected deaths of babies, together with collapses, she failed to register any complaint or safeguarding issue, nor informed CQC or RCPCH inspectors of the specific ongoing concerns of the doctors, hence more senior directors claimed to the Inquiry they weren't aware of them either. When Kelly did redeploy Letby to a secure office job whilst Letby's grievance was investigated, Kelly did so, as she informed the Thirlwall Inquiry, to shield Letby from the consultants' allegations. In effect, Kelly was protecting Letby and nobody at that stage - when Letby wrote her post-it notes - had even directly accused her, nor put her under investigation. On the contrary, by 2017, Kelly had upheld Letby's 'grievance' and with a 'triumphant tone' - according to a consultant at the Inquiry - announced plans to move Letby back to the unit. In other words, Letby never was accused of anything at that stage nor was she 'completely isolated' as she claimed to police and in court. So, when Nicholas Johnson KC put it to her that her notes that 'I am evil' and 'I did this', and 'I killed them on purpose' was a confession in effect, as her alternative explanation wasn't true - in other words, Letby wrote those words because she knew sooner or later she could expect a knock on the door by Inspector Knacker of the Yard as Letby knew the consultants were on to her - so she had to make up a plausible story that might explain the notes.

The second instance of, "it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence" is regarding Baby C. Evidence showed that two weeks prior, Letby had been on a two-week course in which the dangers of air embolism was emphasised. At the police station, she claimed ignorance of air embolism and said that she thought 'only adults' are affected by embolism. Other evidence showed that after the death of Baby C, Letby had texted a colleague to say that the Baby could have died from air getting into the intravenous tube, amongst other things. So that was another lie she told the police, and which the court was now entitled to hold against her.

There was also a third moment when Letby corrected herself which must have led the court to wonder, why she corrected herself when no-one had pulled her up in the first place. A colleague had left her station momentarily and when she returned, Letby was standing at the door to the unit and mentioned that the baby her colleague was looking after 'looked pale'. As the room was dark and the baby was under a darkened canopy, and when the colleague went to the baby's side, discovered it had actually stopped breathing, when asked by Mr. Johnson KC how she knew the baby looked pale if her eyesight was no better than her colleague's, Letby replied, 'Because I knew what I was looking for.' A momentary beat. 'I mean, I knew what I was looking AT'. Whilst the baby's nurse was out of the room, Letby had popped up to its bedside and lo and behold the baby stopped breathing shortly after.

No more questions, Your Honour.
 
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Police hit back at Peter Hitchens and the DAILY MAIL/MAIL ON SUNDAY's ridiculous conspiracy theories about police trying to manipulate the press. The National Police Cheif's Council debunks Hitchens' claims of being gagged because of police bias.





Personally, I think the change in the police caution is a travesty. It pressurizes accused into saying things in police questioning when under duress. If they change their story at trial it looks like they are guilty. If they stick to a hurried and not entirely true alibi, then it also looks like guilt if it turns out not to be entirely true.

Can someone socialize and yet also feel isolated? Of course they can.

As for the “myths”, some of this is laughable. Who genuinely thinks that a police media briefing doesn’t influence journalists and all they want to do is help the journalists out with their “busy” lives? Are we supposed to assume from this that the police are not busy and with all the free time they have they decide, out of the goodness of their hearts, to do some pro bono journalism to help out busy scribes?

Jesus!
 
Personally, I think the change in the police caution is a travesty. It pressurizes accused into saying things in police questioning when under duress. If they change their story at trial it looks like they are guilty. If they stick to a hurried and not entirely true alibi, then it also looks like guilt if it turns out not to be entirely true.

Can someone socialize and yet also feel isolated? Of course they can.

As for the “myths”, some of this is laughable. Who genuinely thinks that a police media briefing doesn’t influence journalists and all they want to do is help the journalists out with their “busy” lives? Are we supposed to assume from this that the police are not busy and with all the free time they have they decide, out of the goodness of their hearts, to do some pro bono journalism to help out busy scribes?

Jesus!
You are missing the point. Letby said she wrote those notes BECAUSE she was 'completely isolated' and only allowed to speak to two nurses and Dr. A. In court under oath, she repeated this. The prosecution produced clear photographic evidence that it was completely untrue as she was out with her nursing friends - many of them - several times a week. Plus, when she was deployed to office work it was presented as 'a secondment' with no hint she was under any investigation.

When you say you do not agree that courts should be able to hold what a person says in a police station under caution against them, are you saying that there should be a new Act of Parliament passed to change the College of Policing standards, or are you saying only Letby should be treated differently from other suspects? In effect, the police should vary protocol depending on the subjective opinion of the arresting officer?
 
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I have just been watching a major car crash press conference of Letby's new barrister, Mark McDonald, who claims to have 'bombshell' fresh evidence. This fresh evidence turns out to be some doctor from Canada named Dr Taylor (IIRC) claiming that from a report he saw - although he hasn't actually seen the medical records (which are protected by confidentiality laws) - he concludes that Baby O was killed by a doctor (Dr. Brearey) who injected a needle for aspiration in the wrong place thus puncturing the baby's liver and drawing blood instead of stomach contents. He says definitively that it is this which killed Baby O as it put Baby O into shock. Let's hope Dr 'Angry' Taylor can afford the libel costs if Dr. Brearey decides to sue.

The rest of the 'bombshell' evidence seemed to be one long invective about how much they despised Dr Dewi Evans, who was court-appointed, not working for the prosecution, as McDonald kept claiming.

With live coverage from UK mainstream press, no wonder Mr. McDonald looked smug and well-pleased with himself at his devious trouble-making tactics getting so much coverage.
 
I have just been watching a major car crash press conference of Letby's new barrister, Mark McDonald, who claims to have 'bombshell' fresh evidence. This fresh evidence turns out to be some doctor from Canada named Dr Taylor (IIRC) claiming that from a report he saw - although he hasn't actually seen the medical records (which are protected by confidentiality laws) - he concludes that Baby O was killed by a doctor (Dr. Brearey) who injected a needle for aspiration in the wrong place thus puncturing the baby's liver and drawing blood instead of stomach contents. He says definitively that it is this which killed Baby O as it put Baby O into shock. Let's hope Dr 'Angry' Taylor can afford the libel costs if Dr. Brearey decides to sue.

The rest of the 'bombshell' evidence seemed to be one long invective about how much they despised Dr Dewi Evans, who was court-appointed, not working for the prosecution, as McDonald kept claiming.

With live coverage from UK mainstream press, no wonder Mr. McDonald looked smug and well-pleased with himself at his devious trouble-making tactics getting so much coverage.
From the BBC
Lucy Letby's lawyers have said they will be asking the Court of Appeal to immediately review all of her convictions because an expert witness "has now changed his mind on the cause of death of three babies". ...
He[Mark Macdonald - Barrister] said: "Remarkably, Dr Evans has now changed his mind on the cause of death of three of the babies: Baby C, Baby I and Baby P." ...
He said Dr Evans had "revised his opinion in relation to Baby C" and had written a new report which he had given to police months ago.

But, he said "despite numerous requests" the prosecution had "yet to give this report to the defence".

"The defence will argue that Dr Evans is not a reliable expert, and all the convictions are not safe," Mr McDonald said. .... Mr McDonald said he also had reports from two neonatologists that he claims count as fresh evidence in the cases of Baby C and Baby O, with no evidence of deliberate harm.
Certainly if there is 'new evidence' that the police/prosecution have that has not been shared with the defence this is an issue that would justify an appeal.

 

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