Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[Manopolus]

Siri, can you give me an example of a false dilemma, please?

Okay, fine. Replace "running away" with "avoiding" and by that I mean "causing the situation to not occur" rather than "not addressing a situation which occurs." Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I'm probably still not clear enough.

But yeah, the situation I'm describing generally really is one or the other. Either there's a trans person (possibly faking) allowed in the bathroom or there isn't. There's no in between there. I described it generally, and I do think it can be also considered regarding other things.

...but yeah, also confused by the side issue.

Nothing wrong with being a bit more bold instead of being freakin' afraid all the time, mostly of social BS. Might even be the better path.

 

[Matthew Best]

Then we're back where we started. Your solution to a bunch of women telling you this is a problem for them is to say they should "get over it". I see how this is a solution that works for a random man who never thought it was a problem in the first place, but it seems a bit naive as a suggested solution for everybody.

 

[Manopolus]

Then we're back where we started. Your solution to a bunch of women telling you this is a problem for them is to say they should "get over it". I see how this is a solution that works for a random man who never thought it was a problem in the first place, but it seems a bit naive as a suggested solution for everybody.

I guess I'm just not socialized well enough to realize that there's only one way it can be. Or at least not in regards to this particular culture.

And the thing is, is it really anything but a false sense of security, anyway? There's nothing to stop a dude from walking in the women's bathroom if he wants as it is... even without permission. There's usually no one standing there blocking the door. It even occasionally happens by an honest accident. The reason they don't is not usually because they can't. And yes, in rare cases, bad actors actually do break the norm. Will this change that or increase the incidence of it? I don't think that's clear. There were already incidents where heterosexual men walked brazenly into women's bathrooms before trans ever became the issue.

The fear of getting caught, I assume, would be nearly the same, because not many people could pull off that lie. And fewer would even think of trying it. And when you're talking about a deviant male sex drive, fear is part of the appeal, anyway.

So we're left with bad actors existing no matter how we do it. It's not like they aren't already bad actors. They might do something different, but they'll likely do something just as bad. Or worse. Will they get away with it? Dunno... in both cases.

Personally, I have no desire to watch a woman taking a dump (or doing the other one, either), but it's not like people couldn't sneakily access that even as things have been before (peeping toms exist). I don't suspect a minor change will make it any more or less enticing to anybody, and trying to make that happen socially rather than physically is arguably an improvement, if less likely, when coming from your standard incel.

 

[Roboramma]

Wow, big thread. It might have been said before, but I just want to throw out a postulate:

Words mean whatever we decide they mean. That includes the boundaries of said words. Until we fully agree on an actual definition for this sound we use, classification arguments are completely meaningless. In the traditional sense, perhaps we are trying to redefine a word in these modern times. So what? You still know what (or who) we mean when we use the term.

Cool.

Do you think that sex based segregation should exist? Here are some categories where it has generally been deemed a good idea:

- sports
- prisons
- changing rooms

Do you think that sex based segregation of any (which ones) or all of these categories should be replaced by gender-based segregation, and if so do you think that said gender segregation should be based on self-ID or some other methodology?

 

[Roboramma]

And the thing is, is it really anything but a false sense of security, anyway? There's nothing to stop a dude from walking in the women's bathroom if he wants as it is... even without permission. There's usually no one standing there blocking the door. It even occasionally happens by an honest accident. The reason they don't is not usually because they can't. And yes, in rare cases, bad actors actually do break the norm. Will this change that or increase the incidence of it? I don't think that's clear. There were already incidents where heterosexual men walked brazenly into women's bathrooms before trans ever became the issue.

Any man could probably get away with doing so once or twice, but a repeated pattern would quickly be noticed. "That's that guy who keeps following women into the women's room" would become a thing pretty fast, and be acted upon. But if that "guy" is a trans woman, there's no action to take.

 

[Roboramma]

Well, if there's any indication that someone isn't being honest, I *sort of* agree.

The problem with prisons isn't just dishonesty. Even if a male prisoner is honestly trans, they're still a threat to female prisoners, and should be segregated from them.

 

[Manopolus]

Cool.

Do you think that sex based segregation should exist? Here are some categories where it has generally been deemed a good idea:

- sports
- prisons
- changing rooms

Do you think that sex based segregation of any (which ones) or all of these categories should be replaced by gender-based segregation, and if so do you think that said gender segregation should be based on self-ID or some other methodology?

Well, the prisons thing is pretty obvious when some are in there for rape. Some accommodation is needed, but self-reporting isn't the standard I'd use to determine location assignment.

Sports I sort of addressed. It's the one I consider a fair argument. I'm not enough into sports to make it obvious or even interesting to me, though. I'm fairly sure it doesn't matter in chess. If I thought it did, you'd call me sexist. But the sexes are still are separated in that game, nonetheless. Women can actually play in the men's competition, but not vice versa. I'd do away with the separation, and many female grandmasters agree with me.

Changing rooms? Absolutely not necessary. I've been in co-ed changing rooms and they worked just fine. Also, co-ed nudity in the sauna as well as swimming pools work out fairly well. I know this from experience. Very common in certain countries, and it rarely causes any issues. It isn't even exclusive to adults, although the children aren't generally there alone.

...but we aren't even talking about naturism (and it's not even considered naturism at times). It's just a special case exclusion that's being attempted here.

 

[Roboramma]

Depends on the girl, I guess. Wouldn't bother me any, but I'm a guy. I'm actually okay when someone's attracted to me, whether it's mutual or not. Some girls are like me in that respect. Some aren't. And yes, there's a difference in ability to handle a physical attack. I'm aware of that, too. I'm probably one of the last guys on Earth anyone would choose to attack (that isn't on steroids).

It's not just a difference in ability to handle a physical attack. There's also the actual history of having been assaulted. My girlfriend has had to deal with multiple instances of attempted rape and sexual assault throughout her life, starting at something like age 13.

I think you should consider the difference of perspectives of people who've had to deal with this sort of thing to varying degrees throughout their lives. It's not just theoretical for them.

 

[Roboramma]

Well, the prisons thing is pretty obvious when some are in there for rape.

Sports I sort of addressed. It's the one I consider a fair argument. I'm not enough into sports to make it obvious or even interesting to me, though. I'm fairly sure it doesn't matter in chess. If I thought it did, you'd call me sexist. But they still are separated in that game, nonetheless.

Thanks, I actually missed this page of the thread when I responded to that post.

Changing rooms? Absolutely not necessary. I've been in co-ed changing rooms and they worked just fine. Also, co-ed nudity in the sauna as well as swimming pools work out fairly well. I know this from experience. Very common in certain countries, and it rarely causes any issues.

It's been documented in this thread that co-ed changing rooms have a significantly increased incidence of sexual assault.

 

[Manopolus]

It's been documented in this thread that co-ed changing rooms have a significantly increased incidence of sexual assault.

Increased over same-sex changing rooms or increased over completely clothed people of the opposite sex being in the same location? Because they aren't the same. The first one would be obvious, just because most people are hetero. The second is probably true, too, but attraction isn't really as tied to nudity as advertised. People can get just as horny with their clothes on, and erections aren't usually advised in most places I've been (I've never noticed it even happening, but get the impression it's considered an embarrassment).

 

[Roboramma]

Increased over same-sex changing rooms or increased over completely clothed people of the opposite sex being in the same location? Because they aren't the same. The first one would be obvious, just because most people are hetero.

The former. If you find it obvious that sex-segregated changing rooms have lower rates of sexual assault, then why would you support doing away with that segregation, even in part?

 

[Manopolus]

The former. If you find it obvious that sex-segregated changing rooms have lower rates of sexual assault, then why would you support doing away with that segregation, even in part?

Because I don't think the changing room is the problem.

I guess one way to find out might be to pull the "newbies" out of the study. That would test for whether it's the specific environment or a lack of exposure to it. That still wouldn't prove everything, but gets us closer.

Still doesn't show us that the problem isn't specific people who would do similar things in other situations. It also proves nothing about the likelihood of it being reported compared to other venues. I don't know if that's a factor, but it could be (could swing either way on that, actually). Numbers can leave a lot out. I'm fairly sure they can't show us what would have happened if the venue didn't exist -- or if it did things differently. Each moment in each location only happens once. With humans in the wild as subjects, you can't control the determinants to repeat the moment and change only one thing.

Numbers are sometimes useful, though. More useful in hard science than in anything involving human behavior. In that I consider it to be overused and often misused (sometimes even intentionally).

And, of course, I haven't seen the actual study. Feel free to link it. 70 pages is a pretty large amount to search through.

 

[lionking]

Christ I hate fringe resets.

 

[smartcooky]

Christ I hate fringe resets.

Nor do I, which is why I won't be engaging... and I'm already considering taking, shall we say, other steps!

 

[Elaedith]

Well, if there's any indication that someone isn't being honest, I *sort of* agree. But it's a bit hard for someone to suddenly start changing their mind about what sex they are in the late game. Full-blown gender dysphoria tends to be clearly established well before age 10. It's actually not that easy to lie about on a whim.

Actually the most common type of 'gender dysphoria' now involves adolescent girls declaring a trans identity suddenly, without any prior recorded history of gender dysphoria. And activists say that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans anyway, nor do you need to transition and there is no possible way to know a person's gender by observation. And any claim of being trans must be accepted without question. And people can change their gender even on a daily basis. I think you don't know anything about this topic, frankly, and are 20 years out of date.

 

[Manopolus]

Actually the most common type of 'gender dysphoria' now involves adolescent girls declaring a trans identity suddenly, without any prior recorded history of gender dysphoria. And activists say that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans anyway, nor do you need to transition and there is no possible way to know a person's gender by observation. And any claim of being trans must be accepted without question. And people can change their gender even on a daily basis. I think you don't know anything about this topic, frankly, and are 20 years out of date.

Hmm... okay.

I'll have to admit that the last time I knew someone with confirmed gender dysphoria was in the late 1970s/early 80s. The only person, really. It was extremely obvious he/she couldn't have hid it if he/she tried. A close friend, though. I have no idea what pronouns he/she decided to eventually use. That wasn't a thing. Biologically male. It was "he" at the time whether he liked it or not.

So yeah, I'll admit that I might be a little out of date.

And I mean that the kid couldn't have hid it if he/she tried at 8 years old. But yeah, that's who I think about when considering this subject. Heard a few noises about it off to the side now and then, but that's the base of it. It's most certainly a real thing. I can vouch for that. His parents were kind of creeped out by it, but they weren't as harsh as some would have been at the time. Mostly just embarrassed, not angry.

I was 2-3 years older. Don't remember the exact age difference. He lived across the street.

And I'll also admit that the current hubub suggests that it's a bit more common than I would suspect. Do I think that kids are faking for sexual gratification? No, not really. I'd more suspect that they might be faking for attention or maybe they're just confused from all the noise. But I have no actual contact with any of them or any association with schools, so I don't actually know whether anybody's faking or whether it's as common as the noise suggests in the first place. And living in a rural area, the local school off the back end of my yard is a bit conservative, anyway. The other school in town is run by the local Lutheran Church. Less than 20 kids per grade between them, last I knew.

But yeah. There's a lot of political noise going around, and if there's one thing I know about political noise, it's that you can't believe half of it. But that's most of what I know that's current, unfortunately. Did I believe the right (less than) half? Dunno. Might depend on which school you're talking about, if it's about the kids.

Happy?

 

[Samson]

I had not heard of Fallon Fox, but this wiki extract looks particularly bad for trans allies:

The documentary Game Face provides an inside look into Fox's life during the beginning of her MMA controversy.[19]

In July 2022, the BBC apologised for interviewing Fox on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.[20] The BBC had been criticised for not informing listeners that Fox had taken pride in violence against cisgender competitors.[20] A tweet from Fox in 2020 said: "For the record, I knocked two out. One woman’s skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS (sic) in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It’s bliss!"[20] In response to the BBC, Fox said: "It’s part of MMA culture to talk smack about opponents. You see it all the time. Only when I do it people take issue with it."[21]

 

[Darat]

Curious what folk think about this case that is now in front of the court: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67543984 (The case to summarise is about the savage murder of a trans child by two other children.)

Some folk here have been quite vocal about "misgendering" or "missexing" people via the use of pronouns. (I know some are for using a requested pronoun regardless of birth sex or perceived birth sex, some are for using the pronoun they believe matches the sex of the person at birth regardless of the person's preferences.)

Is the court right to refer to the murdered trans child as "her" and "she" (which were the trans child's preferred pronouns) or should the court use "him" and "he" during the case?

 

[Darat]

Curious what folk think about this case that is now in front of the court: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67543984 (The case to summarise is about the savage murder of a trans child by two other children.)

Some folk here have been quite vocal about "misgendering" or "missexing" people via the use of pronouns. (I know some are for using a requested pronoun regardless of birth sex or perceived birth sex, some are for using the pronoun they believe matches the sex of the person at birth regardless of the person's preferences.)

Is the court right to refer to the murdered trans child as "her" and "she" (which were the trans child's preferred pronouns) or should the court use "him" and "he" during the case?

 

[Matthew Best]

I think I tend to fall on the side of doing whatever makes the parents feel better.