Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Emily's Cat]

If I had to bet, I would say that Lia Thomas is going to be remembered as a minor latter day Rosa Parks and we are all on the wrong side of history.

If that happens, I will cry for the entire female sex who will have been relegated to second class citizens and denied basic human rights. Because that's what will need to happen for Lia to be seen as a foundational member of a meaningful civil rights campaign.

It could happen. That's what frightens me. And that's why I am opposed to this denial of objective reality.

I don't really want another dark ages.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If I had to bet I would say that this nonsense is going to go the way of recovered memories and lobotomy. Not to mention that dancing plague, and even tulip bulbs.

I dearly hope this is the case.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Regardless of our disagreement, I think you would probably agree that citing her "400" rank, which occurred while she was taking HRT and still competing in the men's league, is either misinformed or disingenuous when compared to her freshman and sophomore year records.

Actually, I think it's completely relevant and appropriate to note that a male person taking HRT was in the 400s when competing against other males... and magically jumps to #1 when competing against females.

That's exactly the goddamned point.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Still waiting on that link.

I am dismissing you. Your male privilege and male entitlement aren't going to cut it with me. You argue this in bad faith, and you engage in fallacy after fallacy while simultaneously insinuating that those of us who disagree with your inane takes are evil people.

I'm not going to shut up and be kind just because a testiculator insists I should accept their fantasy over my own reality. I'm not going to be bullied and verbally intimidated into kowtowing to your damaging beliefs.

I'm not playing your game anymore.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I am dismissing you. Your male privilege and male entitlement aren't going to cut it with me. You argue this in bad faith, and you engage in fallacy after fallacy while simultaneously insinuating that those of us who disagree with your inane takes are evil people.

I'm not going to shut up and be kind just because a testiculator insists I should accept their fantasy over my own reality. I'm not going to be bullied and verbally intimidated into kowtowing to your damaging beliefs.

I'm not playing your game anymore.

I'm interpreting this as a tacit acknowledgement that you wildly and intentionally misrepresented the Canadian divorce case.

 

[shuttlt]

If I had to bet I would say that this nonsense is going to go the way of recovered memories and lobotomy. Not to mention that dancing plague, and even tulip bulbs.

I wonder if for that to happen, other things wouldn't have to be given up also? What we are seeing is a utopian form of egalitarian urge, combined with an idea of the individual not being defined by society, that comes from the enlightenment playing itself out. I have a very difficult time believing that transgenderism is the only thing that this thinking underpins, or that one can stop trans-activism without rejecting the ideas it has come out of. I would say a lot of the thinking behind diversity, equity and inclusion makes the same radical egalitarian assumptions and prioritises the goal over harm done to individuals.

 

[Meadmaker]

It may not be true. I only came across the reference recently. It's possible a journalist was spicing up the story. As if it needed spicing up.

Exactly. What is certainly true is that "she" remains attracted to women, and she shares a locker room at some events with her female teammates, and at least some of those teammates don't like it.

 

[Meadmaker]

I think it's hard to know.

It is not very hard to know.


As I said before, I think you will find that the number of swimmers who went from 50th place as freshmen to 1st place in the NCAA as a senior is exactly zero, except for Thomas*.

If there is another one out there, I am certain that that person was someone who had never competed as a swimmer in high school, or certainly not before their senior year, but had been very active athletically and switched sports to swimming.

You don't go from fiftieth to first unless you came in fiftieth as a newcomer. Tenth? Certainly. Twentieth? Maybe.

Regardless of our disagreement, I think you would probably agree that citing her "400" rank, which occurred while she was taking HRT and still competing in the men's league, is either misinformed or disingenuous when compared to her freshman and sophomore year records.

I think what you are doing is searching for a grain of truth you can hang onto, or a slim nugget of error in someone else's post you can point to.

If the point someone made with a "400" comment was, "Look how awful she was as a male.", then there's a tiny sliver of a point there. It's true that she was actually much better than 400. However, there are two much larger points that remain true, and that the "400" reference really highlights. One is that men have a huge advantage over women. The person who placed 400 as a man placed number 1 as a woman. It doesn't matter that the 400 finisher had previously finished 50. It also emphasizes just how far away from the top she was when she was competing as a man. 50 is a long way down. It also emphasizes the difference between men and women in a different way. She went from 50 to 400 on hormones. The people she competes with today were already "on hormones", and had been, at some dose or other, since birth.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm interpreting this as a tacit acknowledgement that you wildly and intentionally misrepresented the Canadian divorce case.

Your ability to imagineer things is well documented. I'm not surprised to find another example here.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Your ability to imagineer things is well documented. I'm not surprised to find another example here.

Personal incredulity and spin seem to be the foundation of a lot of posts in this thread. Facts seem to get in the way of dogma.

eta: Just to be clear, I'm not talking about you.

 

[JihadJane]

I contend that modesty concerns are the number 1 reason why people care so much about the privacy of these spaces, and it's not like men are any less capable of feeling shame or embarrassment than women.

Not wanting to be seen naked without consent is a pretty universal demand.

Thought experiment. Say everyone used one giant room to change, women and men all together naked as the day they were born, but there were guards armed with shotguns with orders to kill anyone that tried any pervert stuff. Would that make anyone feel any better? After all, the chances of being assaulted or otherwise victimized would be as close to 0% as anything else on this world.

Of course not. All this talk about how men don't care about privacy breaches because they're not threatened is total hogwash. Modesty has always been the concern shared by everyone, and it's a legitimate one.

Which sex is the main consumer of porn?

 

[sphenisc]

Which sex is the main consumer of porn?

In toto or per head?

 

[shuttlt]

Which sex is the main consumer of porn?

What even is a sex? It's a spectrum

 

[The Atheist]

If I had to bet, I would say that Lia Thomas is going to be remembered as a minor latter day Rosa Parks and we are all on the wrong side of history.

You're funny!

Which sex is the main consumer of porn?

Gee, that's a hard one.

I'd say men, by a very wide margin.

 

[shuttlt]

You're funny!

I was being serious. This has been the direction of history since at least the end of WW2. Maybe the pendulum will swing back?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think what you are doing is searching for a grain of truth you can hang onto, or a slim nugget of error in someone else's post you can point to.

If the point someone made with a "400" comment was, "Look how awful she was as a male.", then there's a tiny sliver of a point there. It's true that she was actually much better than 400. However, there are two much larger points that remain true, and that the "400" reference really highlights. One is that men have a huge advantage over women. The person who placed 400 as a man placed number 1 as a woman. It doesn't matter that the 400 finisher had previously finished 50. It also emphasizes just how far away from the top she was when she was competing as a man. 50 is a long way down. It also emphasizes the difference between men and women in a different way. She went from 50 to 400 on hormones. The people she competes with today were already "on hormones", and had been, at some dose or other, since birth.

Seems to me the drop in rank from less than one year of HRT demonstrates how much these therapies mitigate any inherent advantage males have. An athlete who started off heavily muscled up and was actively training during the therapy still plummeted in performance. A stark testament to the importance that these hormones play in sexual differences.

 

[Ziggurat]

Seems to me the drop in rank from less than one year of HRT demonstrates how much these therapies mitigate any inherent advantage males have. An athlete who started off heavily muscled up and was actively training during the therapy still plummeted in performance. A stark testament to the importance that these hormones play in sexual differences.

Yes, performance drops. But so what? The performance gulf between men and women is huge, a big drop still doesn’t cancel it out.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Another Republican Governor has vetoed an anti-trans bill, this time in Utah:

The full veto letter is available here:

Gov. Cox mentions a few reasons for his veto.

1) He seems pretty unhappy that a total ban version of the bill was rammed through at the last minute, rather than the original bill that was more moderate and the result of a longer debate process that included LGBT advocates. The language of previous versions of the bill would have allowed for case-by-case evaluation rather than a total prohibition.

2) He rightly points out that this expansive, blanket ban would practically guarantee a civil rights lawsuit against the state's high school sports association, which is privately organized, which may drive it to financial insolvency. While other states may be willing to endanger their educational funding in order to advocate bigotry, Gov. Cox doesn't seem willing to sacrifice school sports in order to pander to right wing extremists.

3) A very compelling appeal to humanity, pointing out that of a state of 75,000 student athletes, only 4 of them are trans and only 1 of them is a transgirl competing in girls sports:

Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day," he said. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1emUTfFEbmNmSdW9UhhsRAseVNr4cPIv9/view

Like in the Indiana veto, I wonder how much of this is motivated as a reaction to the extreme bigotry being enacted in Texas. Hopefully this means there's a sense on the less insane parts of the right that there has been a massive overstep.

 

[shuttlt]

3) A very compelling appeal to humanity, pointing out that of a state of 75,000 student athletes, only 4 of them are trans and only 1 of them is a transgirl competing in girls sports.

It's like Rolfe said earlier. The pitch is always "be kind". It's small, what's the big deal, I just want to insert this tiny little wedge into the bottom of the door why are you complaining, nobody can come in through that tiny little crack you are making a mountain out of a molehill.... now let me just get my crowbar into that crack... why are you complaining the end of the crowbar barely goes three inches into the room, it's not going to hurt you.... look the door is open and broken off its hinges, you might as well just accept what's done is done.

They aren't women. They are men with problems. Any law that gives any accommodation on the basis of them being women is contributing to the fundamental changing of society. The world is changed by lots of tiny little changes. I am opposed to such a change, hence I am opposed to any such law.

 

[Meadmaker]

Seems to me the drop in rank from less than one year of HRT demonstrates how much these therapies mitigate any inherent advantage males have. An athlete who started off heavily muscled up and was actively training during the therapy still plummeted in performance. A stark testament to the importance that these hormones play in sexual differences.

You are simply wrong.

The hormones took away a portion of the male advantage.

As if simply looking at Thomas' frame, shoulders, biceps, were not enough to make it obvious that the male advantage remained present, there have been several recent scientific studies, with links posted to this thread, that reached the conclusion that the male advantage cannot be removed by hormone therapy.

Open your eyes. Open your mind.