• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

ISIS teenager wants to come home

Silly Green Monkey said:
Less a scathing dismissal as you might think. The girl's family might well think that the pimp who stole their daughter declared war on them.

If you still can't comprehend the comparison, the base facts are that malicious adults manipulated a child's mind until they also had full control of her body as well, now she has escaped their control, and is being penalized as though she was fully adult the entire time and a completely complicit partner to her captor's crimes.
Click to expand...

How specifically did they control her mind and body before she betrayed her family and country?
 
How specifically did she betray her family and country after she was held prisoner by ISIS? Given that you have set the parameters as being after they had control of her body as well as her mind. Anything she did then, only a monster could hold against her--she was terrified for her life and being raped.
 
SleepingWeasle said:
Pimps have declared war against our countries? If not, I don't see how your silly comparison makes any sense.
Click to expand...

Analogy Failure Mode #2: Even a good analogy fails to convince someone who wasn't convinced by the original argument in its own terms. No analogy is a perfect mapping; if it were, it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be the thing itself. This gives bad faith plenty of options for dismissing the analogy on the grounds of one if its non-analogous, and non-relevant elements.

Even SleepingWeasle doesn't bother to argue why or how ISIS declarations of war inform his preference to strip her of her citizenship and deny her the right to be present for her trial. He just hopes that by addressing a point that was not actually part of Darat's argument, we will lose sight of the fact he did not address the argument at all, let alone actually rebut it.

SleepingWeasle, implicit in your attempted rebuttal is a concession on all of the points Darat raised: Shamima Begun would, indeed, normally be entitled to retain her citizenship and be present at her trial. But you suppose, without bothering to argue why, that because her groomers straddle the line between pimp and warlord, their warlordism changes the equation.

Please explain why ISIS warlike nature makes a difference to Begum's ciitzenship and rights, when the other factors leading up to her situation do not.
 
SleepingWeasle said:
Pimps have declared war against our countries? If not, I don't see how your silly comparison makes any sense.
Click to expand...

Really? It is ridiculous to say that it was silly. The point isn't what she did, but she was at overly impressionable point in life.
 
SleepingWeasle said:
How specifically did they control her mind and body before she betrayed her family and country?
Click to expand...

Everyone who commits a crime betrays their family and their country. We don't normally deny them due process and try to remove their citizenship.

We also don't normally throw the book at people who committed crimes as minors while under the influence of adults.
 
theprestige said:
Everyone who commits a crime betrays their family and their country. We don't normally deny them due process and try to remove their citizenship.

We also don't normally throw the book at people who committed crimes as minors while under the influence of adults.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
How specifically did she betray her family and country after she was held prisoner by ISIS? Given that you have set the parameters as being after they had control of her body as well as her mind. Anything she did then, only a monster could hold against her--she was terrified for her life and being raped.
Click to expand...

Where is the evidence for this?
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
How specifically did she betray her family and country after she was held prisoner by ISIS? Given that you have set the parameters as being after they had control of her body as well as her mind. Anything she did then, only a monster could hold against her--she was terrified for her life and being raped.
Click to expand...

Why the obvious lying? If truth is on your side, you shouldn't need to stretch it so much.
 
theprestige said:
Analogy Failure Mode #2: Even a good analogy fails to convince someone who wasn't convinced by the original argument in its own terms. No analogy is a perfect mapping; if it were, it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be the thing itself. This gives bad faith plenty of options for dismissing the analogy on the grounds of one if its non-analogous, and non-relevant elements.
Who claimed a perfect analogy is necessary?

Even SleepingWeasle doesn't bother to argue why or how ISIS declarations of war inform his preference to strip her of her citizenship and deny her the right to be present for her trial. He just hopes that by addressing a point that was not actually part of Darat's argument, we will lose sight of the fact he did not address the argument at all, let alone actually rebut it.

Where has any of this been argued by me? How about rather than making up arguments in your head, you stick to the reality of my posts?

SleepingWeasle, implicit in your attempted rebuttal is a concession on all of the points Darat raised: Shamima Begun would, indeed, normally be entitled to retain her citizenship and be present at her trial. But you suppose, without bothering to argue why, that because her groomers straddle the line between pimp and warlord, their warlordism changes the equation.

Again, where did I claim that? Perhaps you should stop arguing with your own fantasies.

Please explain why ISIS warlike nature makes a difference to Begum's ciitzenship and rights, when the other factors leading up to her situation do not.
Click to expand...

Declaring war on another country or coulture changes all kinds of things ( weather right or wrong) as long as your side is the winners. I honestly can't believe this is news to you.
 
SleepingWeasle said:
How specifically did they control her mind and body before she betrayed her family and country?
Click to expand...

Note that your post, which I was responding to, specifically listed both mind *and body* as being controlled before she betrayed her family and country.

They controlled her body when she was physically present in Syria. I thought that would be obvious, ISIS wasn't in control of her body until they had her body in physical range to be controlled. Do you need anything else explained to you?
 
It matters, because victims deserve protection from being re-victimized by the state. it's a core feature of Justice, which is to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. Children are considered innately innocent, which is why you're fighting so hard to claim that she was not misled, she was not victimized, she is not innocent. But you're having to ignore a lot of important things to do that, like her being a minor, in the learning ages, where we all have to trust that those teaching us have our best interests at heart. I'm sure, whether you excuse this girl or string her up, you know that ISIS didn't have her best interests at heart.
 
theprestige said:
Everyone who commits a crime betrays their family and their country. We don't normally deny them due process and try to remove their citizenship.

We also don't normally throw the book at people who committed crimes as minors while under the influence of adults.
Click to expand...

Really? You really believe that? Please show how every crime is a betrayal of one's country. Of course, I know you're being dishonest and won't.

Where did I argue anything about due process? It it isn't too much trouble, please stop implying I'm saying things I haven't saidl
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
Note that your post, which I was responding to, specifically listed both mind *and body* as being controlled before she betrayed her family and country.
They controlled her body when she was physically present in Syria. I thought that would be obvious, ISIS wasn't in control of her body until they had her body in physical range to be controlled. Do you need anything else explained to you?
Click to expand...

She betrayed her family and country before she left to join theml. But of course, everyone already knows that.
 
Given that crimes are decided by one's country, in that specific actions are defined as crimes and penalties applied, then it's a small step to breaking the country's laws being a betrayal of that country. It's really not a hard concept.
 
SleepingWeasle said:
Evidence?
Also, since hen does this matter, except for sentencing?
Click to expand...

She was 15. It matters. The question is, does the state have a right to hold everything you did as a minor against you as an adult?
 
Last edited:
Silly Green Monkey said:
It matters, because victims deserve protection from being re-victimized by the state. it's a core feature of Justice, which is to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. Children are considered innately innocent, which is why you're fighting so hard to claim that she was not misled, she was not victimized, she is not innocent. But you're having to ignore a lot of important things to do that, like her being a minor, in the learning ages, where we all have to trust that those teaching us have our best interests at heart. I'm sure, whether you excuse this girl or string her up, you know that ISIS didn't have her best interests at heart.
Click to expand...

Why do you feel the need to lie so much?
 
SleepingWeasle said:
She betrayed her family and country before she left to join theml. But of course, everyone already knows that.
Click to expand...

Which means, ISIS didn't control her body. Yet. That makes your question of how she betrayed her family and country after being physically controlled as well as mentally, incoherent and nonsensical.

Why is her guilt and punishment so important to you?
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
Which means, ISIS didn't control her body. Yet. That makes your question of how she betrayed her family and country after being physically controlled as well as mentally, incoherent and nonsensical.

Why is her guilt and punishment so important to you?
Click to expand...

My entire point is that at the time she betrayed get country and family, ISIS wasn't controlling her. You have yet to make any argument as to how they were.

Her guilt and punishment isn't important to me. Why do you insist on dishonesty?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom