• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Bible and Spanking Children

Christian said:
dimossi wrote:
Physical punishment gives the message that "might makes right

This cannot be true. The logic is flawed here. I don't see the necessary connection.

dimossi wrote:
Perhaps the most important problem with corporal punishment is that it distracts the child from the problem at hand, as he becomes preoccupied with feelings of anger and revenge.

Again, here I don't see the necessary connection.

dimossi wrote:
In this way the child is deprived of the best opportunities for learning creative problem-solving, and the parent is deprived of the best opportunities for letting the child learn moral values as they relate to real situations. Thus corporal punishment teaches a child nothing about how to handle similar situations in the future.

This is false.

dimossi wrote:
Loving support is the only way to learn true moral behavior based on strong inner values rather than superficially good behavior based only on fear. Strong inner values can only grow in freedom, never under fear.

This is also false. The only way?

dimossi wrote:
Physical punishment gives the message that hitting is an appropriate way to express one's feelings and to solve problems.

This is not true.

Stig wrote:
She has never been punished physicly for anything she has done...

This cannot be true.
Click to expand...


What kind of reasoning is this?!? Please explain why you don't see any connection and/or why the above statemens are false and/or cannot be true.
 
I am taller than many people. . .
I am shorter than many people. . .
I am smarter than many people. . .
I am not as smart as many people. . .


Like most every other human trait, not all humans are as smart or have the same intelligence as each other.
 
Old topic. As far as the issue of the Bible and hitting children, I think we should look at it this way. Hitting kids was the norm in ancient times. Just like gross sexism. Slavery. Superstition. Etc. The Bible perpetuated all of these things by not coming right out and saying they're wrong, accompanied by the numerous passages where it gives tacit approval.

Also, consider the words used most often in the Helenikos (Hellenic, Greek) New Testament for "child".

From the root word *paio*--"to strike; to hit"

*pais*--"the struck one; the one who has been hit"

*paidion*--"the little one who has been hit"

*paidiske*--"the female who has been struck"

The Helenikos-speaking authors of the NT selected wording that characterized children as being hit regularly, without specific commentary that such was no longer to be tolerated by good Khristianoi (Christians). An indication that the Biblical Christian view of kids is that they should be hit, and hit often.

How's that for Christian family values?
 
"By giving minorities or the environmentally challenged, the opportunity to hold positions where they can learn new skills, become more educated and productive, the vicious cycle is broken. In effect, the future generations of those families becomes smarter."
Click to expand...
The point of affirmative action was never to make the recipients smarter. It was to put their kids in the same middle class environment everyone else was in, so they would become middle class people just like everybody else's kids.
 
Christian said:
Stig wrote:
The discussion is about hitting your child. Not "Your child falling over by accident and learning from running too fast"

Ok, let's see if I can explain the connection here. By the same principles that a child learns when hurting herself by running too fast, we can use corporal punishment. This is the argument.

I hope you will at least listen to the argument before stating it is poor.
Click to expand...

<font color=red>Getting hurt by running too fast is NOT grounds for using corporal punishment to discipline a child. The former hurt came by accident. The latter hurt was deliberate and exercised by an adult.
 
Ruby wrote:
Getting hurt by running too fast is NOT grounds for using corporal punishment to discipline a child. The former hurt came by accident. The latter hurt was deliberate and exercised by an adult.

An old topic revived. Ok, I'll bite.

I'm not sure if what you wrote is what you meant to say. I agree that running too fast is not grounds for corporal punishment. The parrallel is related to how humans best learn.

The best lessons often come with a price in pain.
 
Christian said:
Loki wrote:
Are you saying that *you* believe that corporal punishment is
1. the preferred method for disciplining a child?
2. approved and encouraged by the bible?

2 is correct.

.......................................................

<font color=red>I</font><font color=blue> totally</font><font color=red>disagree.

I do not share the opinion you hold of the following verses:

Proverbs 13:24 "He who withholds his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him diligently. "

Proverbs 22:15 " Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13-14 " Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
You shall strike him with the rod
And rescue his soul from Sheol. "

These verses might sound as if they are promoting spanking, but there's other interpretations to look at. A *rod* was also used to protect and guide sheep. The rod was used to fight off prey too. The usage of rod in Proverbs can easily mean giving guidance. Proverbs is a book of poetry and word usage is guaranteed to be in methaphoric terms.

For instance Proverbs 24:3-4 says "By wisdom a house is built,
And by understanding it is established;
And by knowledge the rooms are filled
With all precious and pleasant riches."

Is this a literal house?

Proverbs 27:22 "Though you pound a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his foolishness will not depart from him. "

Does this mean people have or should pound a fool in a mortar?

It should be noted that Jewish families do not use a *rod* to beat their children. They do not use that interpretation. It did not come out of the original Hebrew text.

Corporal punishment is man made. In the NT, Jesus had a message of love and gentleness and understanding. He did not promote corporal punishment.

Ephesians 6:4 says " Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. "

Spanking provokes anger in a big way.
Click to expand...
 
Ruby, interesting interpretation and explanation. Please tell me, what rules do you use to distinguish when things are being said figuratively or literally?

Second, where do get that spanking provokes anger in a big way? (at least the one I been talking about)
 
Christian said:
Ruby wrote:
Getting hurt by running too fast is NOT grounds for using corporal punishment to discipline a child. The former hurt came by accident. The latter hurt was deliberate and exercised by an adult.

An old topic revived. Ok, I'll bite.

I'm not sure if what you wrote is what you meant to say. I agree that running too fast is not grounds for corporal punishment. The parrallel is related to how humans best learn.

The best lessons often come with a price in pain.
Click to expand...
------------------------------------------
Oh goodness....just realized I am responding to very old posts. Sorry!

I was only trying to say that it is wrong to use that parallel to help justify spanking.
 
Ruby wrote:
I was only trying to say that it is wrong to use that parallel to help justify spanking.

Obviously I don't agree, but I would like to know your reasons.
 
Christian said:
Ruby, interesting interpretation and explanation. Please tell me, what rules do you use to distinguish when things are being said figuratively or literally?

Second, where do get that spanking provokes anger in a big way? (at least the one I been talking about)
Click to expand...
<<<

<font color=red>Hi, sorry for a delay in responding....been on vacation with hubby.:-)

I'm afraid that I don't have great intellectual skills or the ability to articulate myself well...so I will do my best to present my point and hope it makes some sense.

The guidelines I use to distinguish when things are being said figuratively and literally when it comes to the bible are; 1. When was the passage in question written 2. Who wrote it 2. Who is being addressed. 3. Is it part of the culture of the time. 4. Is it part of the NT church or just for the OT Jewish nation. 5. What does in say in original Hebrew or Greek. 6. Are forms of simile and metaphor being used.

There have been many studies on how spanking provokes anger. All the children that I have been around who were spanked...especially with a belt...were angry, and some were wild and uncontollable. Most parents spank in anger.

Unfortunately, I spanked my firstborn son when he was little. I stopped by the time he was six as it was not working. It made him angry and frustrated. It did not put an end to the bad behavior. I changed my whole approach after that. I used reasoning and time-outs and grounding. It worked. He became calmer, happier and much easier to deal with. He grew up never being a rebellious teen. He is now a wonderful young man.

Thankfully, I was never spanked as a child. I have grown up just fine. :-)
 
Ruby wrote:
The guidelines I use to distinguish when things are being said figuratively and literally when it comes to the bible are; 1. When was the passage in question written 2. Who wrote it 2. Who is being addressed. 3. Is it part of the culture of the time. 4. Is it part of the NT church or just for the OT Jewish nation. 5. What does in say in original Hebrew or Greek. 6. Are forms of simile and metaphor being used.

Sounds reasonable. Applied to the text in question, I don't see how your method would preclude the rod as a physical thing. One problem is that there is action some sentences. For the methaphor to work, it needs to be consistent. Please note
From Ruby's Bible quote:

Proverbs 23:13-14 " Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
You shall strike him with the rod
And rescue his soul from Sheol. "
Click to expand...

How would you translate the methaphor here? It seems to me very straight forward meaning here, (no methaphor used)

There have been many studies on how spanking provokes anger. All the children that I have been around who were spanked...especially with a belt...were angry, and some were wild and uncontollable. Most parents spank in anger.

I have seen no studies that conclude this. However, I have seen studies that make no direct link between spanking and anger in children.

Unfortunately, I spanked my firstborn son when he was little. I stopped by the time he was six as it was not working. It made him angry and frustrated. It did not put an end to the bad behavior. I changed my whole approach after that. I used reasoning and time-outs and grounding. It worked. He became calmer, happier and much easier to deal with. He grew up never being a rebellious teen. He is now a wonderful young man.

Thankfully, I was never spanked as a child. I have grown up just fine. :-)

Spanking is only effective from 3-8 years old. If other approaches have been effective for you, that is excellent. Spanking is only one of the tools for discipline and only applicable to certain kinds of behavior and for certain types of children.

To me, the most important component is the principle behind spanking, that is, consequence in the form of pain is an effective teacher.
 
Christian said:
This is my thesis: Intelligence is not measurable, therefore I'm denying the entire statement *Half the population in the US is below average intelligence*. The statement is nonsensical. (I have to thank my unnamed informant for the wording, it is hers/his). I will use him/her as an part of my proof that intelligence can't be measured...... Each individual is smarter than another individual in at least one respect...
So, when I say I'm smarter than someone else (my IQ is higher than yours, you are saying you are only *smarter* in what the test is evaluating), you are speaking in relative terms. So relative that the render a generalization false. You can't be absolutely smarter than the other person and you can't be generally smarter than the other person....."<<<<

<font color=red>Well, I must say that I agree with your entire post on this issue. I have many friends with seemingly various levels of intelligence. I have one friend who due to poor spelling and grammar could seem below average in intelligence, but she is actually brilliant and working on her masters degree. All you have to do is talk with her to realize she is highly intelligent. Her intelligence is centered around history, literature, and, religious studies.

I have some friends who are not *book smart* but are *street smart*.

My hubby is an engineer and skilled in various other things. He is brilliant. Has perfect spelling and grammar and is great at math. As for me...lol.......I get by! Most of my friends think I am intelligent due to the way I talk and my mannerisms, but I am not really. Since I love culture, art, literature, and enjoy opera and classical music, it makes it seem to my friends that I am of high intelligence and they are below me. I have tried to dispell this myth...especially with my hubby...but to no avail. Some of my friends are not into culture, art or classical music, but they are brighter and sharper in intelligence in a way that I will never be....and wish I was.
Click to expand...
 
Ruby wrote:
Well, I must say that I agree with your entire post on this issue. I have many friends with seemingly various levels of intelligence. I have one friend who due to poor spelling and grammar could seem below average in intelligence, but she is actually brilliant and working on her masters degree. All you have to do is talk with her to realize she is highly intelligent. Her intelligence is centered around history, literature, and, religious studies.

I have some friends who are not *book smart* but are *street smart*.

Yes, I know what you're saying.

My hubby is an engineer and skilled in various other things. He is brilliant. Has perfect spelling and grammar and is great at math. As for me...lol.......I get by! Most of my friends think I am intelligent due to the way I talk and my mannerisms, but I am not really. Since I love culture, art, literature, and enjoy opera and classical music, it makes it seem to my friends that I am of high intelligence and they are below me. I have tried to dispell this myth...especially with my hubby...but to no avail. Some of my friends are not into culture, art or classical music, but they are brighter and sharper in intelligence in a way that I will never be....and wish I was.

Seems to me you admire him very much. That is one esential ingredient in a happy marriage. You sound smart.
 
Christian said:
Ruby wrote:
The guidelines I use to distinguish when things are being said figuratively and literally when it comes to the bible are; 1. When was the passage in question written 2. Who wrote it 2. Who is being addressed. 3. Is it part of the culture of the time. 4. Is it part of the NT church or just for the OT Jewish nation. 5. What does in say in original Hebrew or Greek. 6. Are forms of simile and metaphor being used.

Sounds reasonable. Applied to the text in question, I don't see how your method would preclude the rod as a physical thing. One problem is that there is action some sentences. For the methaphor to work, it needs to be consistent. Please note
How would you translate the methaphor here? It seems to me very straight forward meaning here, (no methaphor used)"<<

<font color=red>I see the rod as a symbol of authority, guidance, and correction. I see terms such as "beat" or "strike" to mean using that authority and guidance.....correcting by time-out or grounding etc.

>>"Spanking is only effective from 3-8 years old. If other approaches have been effective for you, that is excellent. Spanking is only one of the tools for discipline and only applicable to certain kinds of behavior and for certain types of children. "<<

Well, it's nice that you do at least believe that. Some parents still use belts on teens.
Click to expand...
 
My hubby is an engineer and skilled in various other things. He is brilliant. Has perfect spelling and grammar and is great at math. As for me...lol.......I get by! Most of my friends think I am intelligent due to the way I talk and my mannerisms, but I am not really. Since I love culture, art, literature, and enjoy opera and classical music, it makes it seem to my friends that I am of high intelligence and they are below me. I have tried to dispell this myth...especially with my hubby...but to no avail. Some of my friends are not into culture, art or classical music, but they are brighter and sharper in intelligence in a way that I will never be....and wish I was.

Seems to me you admire him very much. That is one esential ingredient in a happy marriage. You sound smart. "<<

<font color=red>Thank you. I do admire my hubby. He is so clever. He also accepts and befriends people of all sorts of levels of intelligence.

Although I disagree with your stance on spanking, I must say that I am dismayed at how some have treated you in this thread. They have been merciless and so condescending. You are not only very intelligent, but you are gracious and patient and have some class.
 
Ruby wrote:
I see the rod as a symbol of authority, guidance, and correction. I see terms such as "beat" or "strike" to mean using that authority and guidance.....correcting by time-out or grounding etc.

I'm not sure it works but, I respect your opinion.

Although I disagree with your stance on spanking, I must say that I am dismayed at how some have treated you in this thread. They have been merciless and so condescending. You are not only very intelligent, but you are gracious and patient and have some class.

Thank you, very nice of you to say.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom