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What do you do when your friends believe woo?

My son's significant other's father believes Bigfoot exists... God and the Sharper Image Ionic Breeze...

They're a completely different category - harmless beliefs. ($300 for the ioniser is close enough to harmless)

Fraudsters, con-men and charlatans are not the same, although there is some crossover from your group. Even genuine believers in the sasquatch hate fraudsters.

What shroom is describing is criminal.
 
At this point all I think you can say is "I told you so" when they are conned yet again.
 
You've made your case. He and they responded. Now it's time to back off and do the experiment. Let the future decide.
 
Just this morning a friend started talking about "karma". She was discussing someone she knows who was recently diagnosed with a non-fatal disease, but is experiencing chronic pain. The person had "always been a jerk", and now "karma" was . . . I guess . . . getting him.

I brought up that her son, now age 31, had been diagnosed as a young child with a seizure disorder and serious mental health problems. Her response to that was, "His karma was probably from a past life."

Here's the thing. With this exception, and it rarely comes up, I like her. She is a good person, kind, thoughtful, and a supportive friend. It seems that when having friends that have some woo-issues, we should look at the whole picture, the whole person. In a situation like this morning, I grind my teeth and wince, I have already tried logic. It didn't work.

Today, next week, whenever, if I need something she would be there. If I am having a hard time, she will find a way to make me laugh. To me, that is far more important then her belief in "karma".
 
A friend recently asked me to look at some papers she had and give her my opinion. What followed was a trip down a rabbit hole of sovereign citizen claptrap that I had to decipher because my friend was about to spend a great deal of money on what they were offering.

This is the website: //actnowpma.info/PrivateMemberAssoc.html

In a nutshell, this guy has been marketing Private Membership Associations as a way for alternative health care practitioners to practice their trade without interference from licensing boards or the FDA.

He charges $6000 to draw up papers for a P.M.A. that he claims will, and I quote, be able to "Enjoy a general immunity to public laws, regulations and internal rules of local, state and federal administrative agencies (including, but not limited to, the FDA) that protect the public health."

So I give her my opinion, which is that the guy is a con artist.

Then she tells me that she isn't the only one, that others among our friends had already bought in.

So far I know of two friends who run alternative health businesses who paid this guy to draw up papers for them, and they are mad as hell with me right now because they love this guy and I say he's scamming them.

I don't feel like I can just sit idly by while some scammer rips off my friends. We've had clashes before, because my acceptance of and advocacy for vaccines and "western medicine" aka Science Based Medicine.

So how do I deal with friends who believe in woo without biting my tongue every time one of them mentions something I disagree with? These are people I like and respect. I value their friendship, but I don't want to sacrifice my ethics or commitment to the truth just to remain friends.

Don't take yourself too seriously.
 
They're a completely different category - harmless beliefs. ($300 for the ioniser is close enough to harmless)

Fraudsters, con-men and charlatans are not the same, although there is some crossover from your group. Even genuine believers in the sasquatch hate fraudsters.

What shroom is describing is criminal.
It's all a matter of perspective. The dad goes to Bigfoot believers' groups, I don't know if money changes hands. God believers donate to churches and lots of that wealth ends up on guilded walls of the churches.
 
A friend recently asked me to look at some papers she had and give her my opinion. What followed was a trip down a rabbit hole of sovereign citizen claptrap that I had to decipher because my friend was about to spend a great deal of money on what they were offering.

This is the website: //actnowpma.info/PrivateMemberAssoc.html

In a nutshell, this guy has been marketing Private Membership Associations as a way for alternative health care practitioners to practice their trade without interference from licensing boards or the FDA.

He charges $6000 to draw up papers for a P.M.A. that he claims will, and I quote, be able to "Enjoy a general immunity to public laws, regulations and internal rules of local, state and federal administrative agencies (including, but not limited to, the FDA) that protect the public health."

So I give her my opinion, which is that the guy is a con artist.

Then she tells me that she isn't the only one, that others among our friends had already bought in.

So far I know of two friends who run alternative health businesses who paid this guy to draw up papers for them, and they are mad as hell with me right now because they love this guy and I say he's scamming them.

I don't feel like I can just sit idly by while some scammer rips off my friends. We've had clashes before, because my acceptance of and advocacy for vaccines and "western medicine" aka Science Based Medicine.

So how do I deal with friends who believe in woo without biting my tongue every time one of them mentions something I disagree with? These are people I like and respect. I value their friendship, but I don't want to sacrifice my ethics or commitment to the truth just to remain friends.

I actually am in a similar situation right now. However, there is additional stress because my friend is having a paranoid schizophrenic episode. Although his subculture is very prone to superstition, I think there is irrationality on top of the cultural beliefs.

He wanted me to convince my sister, who had cancer, to go to a Reiki specialist. This person has diabetes and failed kidneys. He also said that he would use his genius to get out of dialysis and cure his diabetes. I told him he wasn't a genius. He was angry. He demanded that I tell him what Heisenbergs uncertainty principle REALLY meant.

I told him that I didn't believe in his alternative medicine. He kept on repeating, asking me to get involved I told him I didn't believe it. Then I told him my sister didn't believe it. He accused me of lying. When I gave in a little, I got in trouble. When I told him that I don't want to do it anymore, he said that I didn't try hard enough. I told him that he was going through a manic episode. He claimed that I never told him that I didn't believe in Reiki. I hung up while he was still blabbing.

He called me again. He didn't talk about the alternative medicine. However, he started talking about throwing his aunt out of her house. He then said that if I betrayed him he would hurt me. I promised to only talk ti him about our hobbies and pastimes. I didn't want to hear anything that involved his genius.

He claimed the NSA was tapping our phone. I told him it was very plausible, given my former line of work, the professions of his friends and the nature of his threats. I still believe it too. Then he asked me to curse over the phone. I did to show I wasn't afraid. Then I laid down my terms of friendship.


I told him that I didn't want to hear anything about alternative medicine, his aunt, ESP or anything of a woo woo nature. Further, I told him not to tell me anything he didn't want to hear on CNN. I promised to tell everyone who asked what precisely he told me. If there was any investigation, then I would tell the authorities. I then suggested that he work on his metacognitive skills and hung up.

I call him twice every month. I leave a message on his answering machine. I say that I hope he is all right. I state that if his manic episode is done, then he should call me. He hasn't called me for two months.


You haven't told us why they are mad at you. So I suspect there is something you don't want to tell us. If this is all there is to the story, then they have no right to be mad at you.

You warned them only once, then you are clear. You told them that you think it is a scam. You and they should avoid the issue after that. Maybe you told them more than once.

However, maybe they know it is a scam. Maybe they are really part of it. Maybe they told you to stay out of it because they don't want you involved in their dirty business. They may be trying to protect you by keeping you out. If so, you should either keep out of it or inform the correct authorities. If you want to keep their 'friendship', then stay out of it.

The only thing you should add to your current protest is a request to leave you out of it. Say that you don't want to be party to anything you consider to be a scam. Insist that you don't want to hear any more woo woo because you don't want to hurt them

This strategy could be compromised if investigators ask you for information. You may be called in as a witness. If so, you should really co-operate. However,
you should at least tell them now that you will obey the law.

It is a scam not only because of the science is wrong. It is a scam because the law doesn't really work that way. So the claim to go around the law would be a scam. If they believe that a lawyer can dissolve any and all regulations that apply to them, they are still being scammed. It would be a scam even if their woo-woo science was true.

You told them that, right? You told them that the legal claims were as bogus as the woo woo science. If you told them that both the science and the legality is bad, then you did your duty. Any badgering on your part past this point is harassment.

Please leave them alone. If you are really their friend, then you should respect their privacy. They are entitle to their fun. If they want to destroy themselves, then you should let them even if they are your friends. Unless they provide a public menace, you should not be involved. If they try to force anything on anybody, including you, you should tell someone else.

This may be a temporary phase on their part. While they are working on this delusion, restrict conversations to recreations and pastimes.

An occasional hint may be appropriate. I am sure that their insanity will leak into all their recreational activities. However, don't push them. Make it clear that you have not promised to keep their secrets. However, don't talk about them.

Enjoy their company if you can. However, don't let them into your head! Don't be party to any conspiracy! :)
 
I think most of the anger springs from the fact that the original friend who showed me the papers backed out and charged back the payment. So now the bank is involved.

The rest of the group are pressuring her to explain herself, but she can only tell them I told her it was a scam. She's come around to the idea that the guy scammed her.

We're starting to think that the one who is screaming the loudest is in on it, hence all the noise.
 
It's all a matter of perspective. The dad goes to Bigfoot believers' groups, I don't know if money changes hands. God believers donate to churches and lots of that wealth ends up on guilded walls of the churches.

How many have been locked up for fraud?
 
Threads like these always make me think I'm working too hard for too little and make me consider a complete moral revamp over to 'you get what you grab, so grab hard and fast' and working out how to con stupid people out of large amounts of money.
 
Threads like these always make me think I'm working too hard for too little and make me consider a complete moral revamp over to 'you get what you grab, so grab hard and fast' and working out how to con stupid people out of large amounts of money.

I am sure many people would try to do this. However I think for most of these people they would make very little money.
 
I have a friend like that.

I disagree with all his woo and female kow-towing.
He disagrees with all my skepticism and womanizing.

We care one whit for each other's personal lives, because we are a great team. We disagree like the worst disagree-ers on this forum, but we appreciate each other's perspective, vehemently disgrace each other's perspective, never incur mod-action, and take turns bringing chicks over to cook for, make music, and you-name it kind of stuff,.

There is something for everyone, whether you love to hate, (him) or hate to love. (Me). But everyone goes home happy. He calls her the next day. I don't. We are both happy with this arrangement.

Lesson: resist woo on this forum. Welcome it for your wing-man; everyone wins with pretending to have an open mind, IRL. But if arguing with randoms on the Internet, never back down.
 
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Recently, on another forum, I posted about a good friend of mine. He is well educated, intelligent, interesting, and I enjoy his company and conversations.

Then, the other night he went into a long diatribe about JFK finding out about aliens in Roswell and that leading to the government having to kill him.

I was stunned. However, I was given some good advice from people on the forum that was basically, enjoy the friendship and let the woo go. It's not worth trying to make an otherwise good friendship by overreacting.
 
So how do I deal with friends who believe in woo without biting my tongue every time one of them mentions something I disagree with? These are people I like and respect. I value their friendship, but I don't want to sacrifice my ethics or commitment to the truth just to remain friends.
You don't have to bite your tongue. If you've explained your views on this and they understand that view and reject it, that's their problem. It's not your job to fix their problems for them.

From then on, I'd say the correct approach is to respond rather than proselytise. By which I mean, don't badger your friends by bringing this up all the time. But if they bring it up, then don't shy away from saying what you actually think. They can reasonably expect you not to bring this up with them after it's been discussed, but they can't reasonably expect you not to say anything if they talk about it to you!

More than likely they will quickly decide that this is something they can't talk to you about, and that will be the end of it until the con bites them in the ass.

The only other thing you might do is report this con merchant to the authorities. He may be breaking some law, and if you could get him arrested then that would be a perfectly valid thing to do.
 
You don't have to bite your tongue. If you've explained your views on this and they understand that view and reject it, that's their problem. It's not your job to fix their problems for them.

From then on, I'd say the correct approach is to respond rather than proselytise. By which I mean, don't badger your friends by bringing this up all the time. But if they bring it up, then don't shy away from saying what you actually think. They can reasonably expect you not to bring this up with them after it's been discussed, but they can't reasonably expect you not to say anything if they talk about it to you!

More than likely they will quickly decide that this is something they can't talk to you about, and that will be the end of it until the con bites them in the ass.

The only other thing you might do is report this con merchant to the authorities. He may be breaking some law, and if you could get him arrested then that would be a perfectly valid thing to do.

This exactly. My friend disagrees with me that cryptozoology is garbage science. I disagree with him that when water freezes into snowflakes or crystals, it does not contain psychic or intelligent properties. He is an idiot, most of us would agree. But he says the same about me, In his board, I'd imagine. It doesn't matter, because we are friends. This always keeps conversation stimulating, and expands both of our "possibilities", because we understand each other positions enough to BS our way into...stuff.

If he ever got into woo enough to cause another human being harm, we may have to part ways. In the mean time, his "this drop of water tells tells me you are a Sagittarius" is right 1/12th enough of the time to keep things lively enough to tolerate.
Plus he knows a lot about geography, and I love that enough to look past the Chupacabra nonsense. You don't come across enough geographiles to dismiss them for their silly beliefs in Nessie. He's got a board for that. So do I.
 
Don't take yourself too seriously.

Right.

OP, you are not the woo police. If your friends want to spend thousands on homeopathy or Amway or crystals or trips to find Bigfoot or pilgrimages to the Ganges, it's their money. If you think this guy is doing something illegal, report him.
 

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